The Vestal Virgins

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Transcript:

Now we're talking about some extraordinary priestesses today,  and for that we need an extraordinary guest.  Would you like to introduce yourself, please?  

Why certainly, my name is Dr. Peta Greenfield.  I hold a PhD in Classics and Ancient History from the University of Sydney.  And my special area of research interest is the  Vestal Virgins.  And particularly, the way those priestesses interacted with  the political and religious landscape of the Roman world.  And over time, that has morphed into me also being a podcast co-host.  And from 2013 onwards, I have co-hosted the Partial Historians podcast  with my colleague and great friend, Dr. Fiona Radford.  So yeah, I'm all things history, but mostly ancient Rome.  

Check out Partial Historians if you haven't already.  But for now, let's talk  Vestal Virgins.  My first question is, we're often under the impression  that Rome's gods and goddesses were kind of stolen from Greeks,  given a bit of a makeover and a new name, but they're copy pastes.  Is this true of the  Vestal Virgins or are they pure Roman?  

Well, first of all, there's a couple of things to tackle here.  That perspective, while very popular, is a little bit rude.  The Romans did not just steal the Greeks' gods,  but we are talking about an interconnected Mediterranean community of various peoples.  And there are influences that are happening in multiple directions  across the Mediterranean world, I'd say predominantly east to west.  So the idea that the Greeks are having a big influence on the Romans  is a good idea, generally speaking, because these ideas seem to be coming  in that sort of westerly direction.  But the Greeks are also being influenced by the people  in the further east, the Levant.  And there's a lot to be said for how that might be happening.  That's not what we're here to talk about.  The  Vestal Virgins, are they Greek?  No, they're not.  Not as far as we can tell.  So there are little hints of connections to Greece.  So the Greeks do have a goddess called Hestia,  and she is the goddess that looks after the fire of the hearth in the home.  And she seems to have a very important place,  albeit maybe outside of the first top tier of Greek gods.  And there does seem to be, when you think about it,  a little bit of an oral connection between the word Hestia  and the word Vesta.  And that might be the sense that there might be a link there.  Vesta too, from the Roman side, is a goddess of the hearth.  And you're like, aha, they're just copying the Greeks.  But no, not necessarily.  It seems to be set up quite differently.  The idea of this hearth goddess is a commonality that is shared.  There might even be that etymological connection  between the ancient Greek and what becomes the Latin.  But we also get a sense that there are definitely distinct things  that are local about Vesta.  And she might have particular Italian qualities  that could be worth understanding in a little bit more depth as well.  

So you've mentioned that Vesta was the goddess of the hearth.  What does that involve as a goddess?  Is she a very feminine goddess involved with the femininity  of domesticity, or is there something that men are interested in as well?  

Yeah, that's a great question.  So the fire is central to the home.  So in the sense that it's gender neutral in that regard,  definitely men and women are both interested in making sure  that the fire is tended to.  Fire is a very powerful tool, so important for cooking,  but also for ritual purposes.  But in the sense that Vesta is conceived of as a goddess,  not as a god, she is not gender neutral at all.  And she is seen as being embodied in the flame.  So she doesn't ever tend to get cult statues  like other gods and goddesses do.  So we tend to see less representation of her as feminine,  yet she's understood to be feminine.  Part of this is related to the  Vestal Virgins themselves.  So one of the ideas that the Romans have about Vesta  is that she wants to be tended by priests that resemble her.  And this means that they have to be women,  and it also means that they have to be virginal.  These are the two particular qualities associated with Vesta  in the Roman mind.  And the priestesses are seen as a visual extension of that.  

When we talk about  Vestal Virgins, then they are all women.  But are they women or is this across the age spectrum as it were?  

Yes, okay.  I see where you're heading.  Yes, yes, yes.  So you don't just wake up one day as a young Roman woman  and be like, you know what, I have a calling.  It's time for me to become a  Vestal Virgin.  No, sorry, it does not work like that.  In order to ensure the virginity of these priestesses,  the Romans go through a very particular process of selection.  And this starts between the ages of six and ten years old.  And this might seem very young from a modern perspective  to select a priestess, but it is in part to ensure that she is virginal.  Because for the Romans, you could be set up in marriage as early as say 12.  Now, I'm not suggesting in any way that that would be ideal,  but this is the way that the Romans sort of conceived of these things.  So in order to make sure that any candidate for the priesthood  was eligible from a physical sense, they had to be chosen very young.  And there is a range of criteria that goes along with this.  We're talking about young girls drawn from the most elite families of the Romans.  So it's not just any girl, has to come from particular families.  She also needs to be rigorously scrutinized in terms of her physical eligibility.  This means that she must have no blemishes on her body whatsoever.  Both of her parents need to be confirmed to still be alive.  If one of them is dead, she's out of contention.  She also must have no speech impediment and no impediment to her hearing as well.  And all of this makes sense within the context of what would be required from a priestess.  They have to be able to recite at moments of ritual.  They have to be able to say the words and the words in the right order precisely  in order to be able to appeal to the gods correctly.  And if any of those details don't go right,  it could compromise the Roman's relationship with the gods.  So trying to select the right kind of people to bring into a priesthood like this  does seem to have a very high threshold.  

So for the families whose daughters are being selected,  is this just a great way of getting rid of a daughter who's not going to inherit your estate  or does this count as the highest of honours for any of your daughters?  

It does become contentious over time.  So the meaning of it changes.  And when we see the development of the priesthood initially,  it does seem to be understood as a significant honour to the family.  There is particular legal sanctions that are offered to vestal candidates.  So they do receive privileges which are different to other women.  So you could count that as a benefit to your family potentially.  But having said that, one of the biggest benefits  that any patriarchal society sees in women is their capacity to be married off.  And that is completely off the table for  Vestal Virgins.  Once you're serving as a priestess, obviously you must maintain your virginity.  And marriage is off the table, completely off the table.  So in that sense, over time as Rome progresses further towards imperial Rome,  so we're thinking like first to second centuries,  the idea of families bringing their daughter into this cult,  it really diminishes in popularity.  And we see figures like Augustus coming out and criticising elite families  for not putting up their daughters as candidates, for instance.  I mean like we need  Vestals.  What's wrong with you people?  You need to get on with this.  And we eventually see the opening up of the eligibility to families  that are not just from the upper, upper echelon of Roman society,  but other families as well that have grown in significance over time,  even if they're not quite of patrician status.  

Okay, so the Nouveau Riche.  Aha, okay.  And do these girls still get to live with their families?  Because as trainee priestesses, as it were,  they're still going to be really, really young.  So do they get to live at home?  

They do not get to live at home once they are selected.  So the selection process requires the decision making of the chief priest of Rome,  the Pontifex Maximus.  And ideally, he would have more than one person to choose from.  So there'd be a range of candidates.  Let's say, imagine it's a world where it's time to select a new Vestal.  And all of the major families have put forward an eligible daughter.  So he's got like, I don't know, 10 or 15 to choose from, perhaps.  The one that is selected undergoes a process,  which is called the right of captio, the right of capture.  And this is a symbolic and somewhat forcible removal from the family.  So the child is taken and led away from the family.  I can only imagine this would be quite traumatic for the candidate involved.  And she is taken to the house of the  Vestals.  So the house of the  Vestals is next door to the temple,  to Vesta, very convenient.  And she then starts living with the  Vestals in that house.  That house has the six  Vestals themselves,  but also the Vestal's attendants.  So she goes into maybe what you might think of as equivalent  as a bit like a monastery or a nunnery,  where she's now living with other practitioners and their attendants.  She is no longer living with her family.  And she will not live with her family again  during her whole time of service.  This is now her home.  

Wow, that's a lot for a small girl to deal with.  I'm thinking of my daughter.  She's 10 and I cannot imagine her being dragged away  to go live in a convent, as it were.  

Yes, this is a huge moment in a child's life, I would say.  

I can only imagine that the girls didn't have  a lot of choice in this at all? 

No choice whatsoever, yes.  Sadly, yeah.  There's no mention in any of our source material  that they turn to the child and be like,  so you're eligible and we'd like to pick you in.  But I do imagine there might be some,  in the lead up, I can imagine a family  would be having conversations with their daughter being like,  this is something that we're looking to do.  This is what it would be like.  Potentially also meeting with people like the Pontifex Maximus,  just to orient them and to have conversations.  Because I think it would be incredibly traumatic  to just be in one moment with no sense of warning,  be taken from your family and placed  in this very different situation.  I think it would be useful for families  and we don't have any evidence for this.  This is pure speculation,  but I think it would be a good idea  if the Romans had done things like this,  having conversations with the child  about the potential, getting to meet the people  that you might be living with in the future,  maybe having a Vestal house open day.  Come along, meet the  Vestals.  Maybe you'll be living here.  Come along, see the campus, could be fun.  I imagine some things like that might have happened.  We don't have any evidence though.  

So did you say that there were six  Vestal Virgins  at any one time?  

This is the number that eventually gets settled on.  So in our very earliest accounts of Rome,  we have two  Vestal Virgins  and that number gradually increases over time to six.  Once we get to six, it's capped out.  We don't get any more than six.  Why that number?  We're not sure, but it does give us  a nice contained body of women  to be thinking about most of the time.  

So I can imagine for a 10-year-old girl  going into the house,  she's presumably replacing a previous Vestal.  Is there some kind of training process  for her to go through?  

We think so, yes.  And this is understood,  some of our source material for this  comes from writers like Plutarch  who talk about there being a 10-year training cycle  where the first 10 years, you're learning everything.  The second 10 years,  you might be teaching it to somebody else.  And the third 10 years,  you're now consider a master of your craft.  So there is an expectation of a minimum time of service  of 30 years from your point of entry  into the  Vestal Virgins.  

So five years longer than the men serving in the army...  

Well, yeah, yeah, just keep going.  So the potential is that  you're not necessarily going to die in this role.  It's not for life necessarily.  

So you could possibly retire?  

You could possibly retire.  So let's say that you were recruited  at the minimum age of six  and you got to 36 and you were like,  I'm out of here.  I cannot wait to leave the  Vestal Virgins.  You would be allowed to go.  What you do after that,  that is also a little bit open as well.  

Do we hear of any  Vestals retiring in their mid 30s  and immediately seeking out the nearest man  out of curiosity?  

No, we do kind of wish we had evidence like that.  It's hypothetically possible,  but we certainly don't have stories like that.  We get a sense that these women,  because they have certain legal privileges,  we do get a sense that  they might have been quite attractive  as prospective marriage partners  if they did leave the order  because they were able to independently own property.  This was one of the things  that they were able to do as a Vestal.  Now, the extent to which they retained  those kinds of privileges if they left the order,  that's a little bit more open to question.  But it's quite possible that  a retired Vestal did have her own property portfolio,  which could be quite enticing to a young patrician  who has a good name,  but maybe doesn't have a good fortune.  But we don't get strong evidence  to suggest that women are making that kind of choice.  We more see women deciding to retain that position for life  and to continue on in the Vestal order  because it's the life that they know,  it's the life that they're used to,  and conceivably what would they do instead?  And being like,  no, no, I'm going to keep on with this.  And so some of them do maintain that  for a very long period of time  and end up in their sort of their 80s,  still serving, which is pretty amazing.  

Interesting.  So they do have an eventual chance  to get rid of the virginity,  but it doesn't seem like they're that keen on the idea.  Well, maybe they knew something  that modern women are already just figuring out.  

Yes, exactly!  So what about the  Vestals  who maybe did get a little bit curious?  Because virginity is part of the job role.  What would happen to a Vestal  if she was caught breaking those rules?  

Yeah, well, we now get into what seems to be  the crisis of potential when you're a  Vestal Virgin,  which is you have entered into a priestly service  before you've entered puberty usually,  we would suspect.  And you've become a woman in a situation  where it's not possible for you to explore anything  about the things you're learning about yourself.  And I dare say that for some  Vestals  this did become an issue where for whatever reason  they wanted to experience a little bit of something  about the world and themselves.  And this led to a ritual compromise of their body.  This level of requirement on  Vestal Virgin  seems to be rather severe.  So we know that other Roman priesthoods  also required moments of ritual abstinence  where there are periods  where you go without any sexual intercourse.  But for the  Vestals, the threshold is much higher.  You must never be anything other than virginal.  And this was not just virginity in the physical sense.  This was also a kind of virgin of spirit.  You had to behave correctly at all times.  And a kind of chaste modesty that is very particular  is evoked around these women as well.  Any slip of this is problematic  and could potentially call your role into question.  And then the role of the gods into question  and this causes all sorts of problems.  This is called the crime of incestum, unchastity.  And the ultimate punishment for being found guilty  of incestum is being buried alive.  

Oh, that sounds particularly grotesque.  Why do they choose that mode of execution?  

That's a good question.  So why would you bury anybody alive?  Well, it seems that there's a potential here  to think about responsibility.  Where does the responsibility lie?  And if a  Vestal Virgin is the earthly representative of Vesta,  then even in a moment where she may be considered guilty of a crime  that is worthy of punishment,  can we truly know what the God's will is?  And the live burial process seems to be a way  of making sure that the gods ultimately decide  whether this woman is punished or not.  So live burial, it's not kind of like  a horrific horror movie kind of thing  where it's like they throw her into a hole  and then they pile dirt up on her  and she's like, ah!  It's not like that.  It feels a little bit more civilized  if live burial can be in any way considered civilized.  

Right, okay.  

Which is there is an underground chamber  which is near the Colline Gate.  So if we're thinking about modern Rome,  near where Termini Station is today.  And there is a procession that is made  from the center of Rome in the Forum  taking this guilty woman,  processing her through in front of everybody to this gate  where there is an underground chamber.  And in that underground chamber,  it is set up with a few of the essentials for life.  A little bit of milk, a little bit of honey,  a little bit of oil.  And they lower the woman down into this chamber  and then they seal it up.  And the idea is that she's got everything she needs to survive  and if the gods want to punish her, they will punish her.  Now there's a couple of things  that I think are pretty horrifying about this.  One, the Romans deciding that  even though they've made the decision  about what classifies this in custom  that somehow they don't get to decide  what ultimately will happen to that woman  and absolve themselves of that responsibility.  Like guys, you're killing somebody here.  But the other thing is that we don't get a sense  that there is a chamber created for each burial,  that there is one chamber.  And over time, you would imagine  that there would be the remains  of other  Vestals down there as well.  So as we progress through Roman history  and we do get a case of in custom,  roughly every second generation  whether they're found guilty or not does depend.  But at some point,   Vestals are going to start finding  the remains of previous  Vestals in this chamber.  

That is truly horrifying.  I didn't realize that the remains wouldn't be cleared away.  For some reason, I just assumed  that they might be collected and deposited somewhere.  

If they are, we don't have evidence  to suggest that would be so.  And perhaps you're right.  I don't know.  These are the things...  I mean, for all that we've got of evidence  for the ancient world,  there's so little things that we actually can confirm.  I always just imagine that the bodies are left there.  That would be the gods deciding.  But you could be quite right that they do go in  because they have to place things down there  for if they're going to have another live burial.  They've got to be able to put the milk and the honey  and the things like that down there.  So maybe they clear them out as well.  Potentially, yes.  

Even so, just knowing that other people have died in there  even if you can't see them is still awful.  

Indeed. Horrifying.  On every level.  

Can I just ask, it takes two to tango.  So what happens to the guys  who are taking the virginity of these virgins?  

It does not go well for them.  If their identity is discovered  and they're implicated and they're found guilty,  they get the traditional Roman punishment  of being scourged by rods,  which basically means that he gets beaten up by everybody.  Everybody grabs a large stick  and they beat him to death in public.  

I actually think that the burial is worse as a way to go.  

Neither is great, but everybody dies.  

So you mentioned that we have cases  where we know that this happened.  Do we know any of these names and how old they were?  

Not necessarily how old they were.  Those things get very hard to track,  but we certainly have the names of quite a few.  So one of the big cases that always stands out for me  is the one that happens in around about the year 114 BCE.  And the complexities of the case carry over into the next year.  But we have this moment where three  Vestals,  so Aemelia, Marcia and Licinia,  are all accused of incest.  So that's half the order right there, accused.  And the problem with this is that  it goes to the usual sort of trial method,  which is the Pontifex Maximus investigates,  and they look into it,  and they end up finding one of the  Vestals guilty  and the other two are acquitted, which would be fine.  That's pretty standard, I would expect.  We've got a lot going on.  Three have been accused.  One is guilty.  The Tribune of the Plebs for that year  are very unsatisfied with that result.  And they start to push for a second investigation.  And I know, I see your face.  It does seem baffling.  But for whatever reason,  the Tribune of the Plebs in this moment  seem to think that the Pontifex Maximus  has not conducted the trial appropriately,  and that a further second investigation  needs to be conducted.  And he has the people behind him for this.  A second trial goes ahead, very unusually,  and it's now outside of the purview of the Pontifex Maximus.  This second trial finds the other two  Vestals also guilty.  So now we have a situation  where half of the Vestal Order has now been found guilty.  There's a lot going on here  that we're not really sure about.  I think that's fair to say.  But it has fallen on the back  of what has been a massive prodigy,  which has happened,  which is a young woman was returning home with her father  and there was a thunderstorm,  she was struck by lightning,  she was thrown off her horse and killed,  and her body was in such a disarray  that her clothing had come up above her lower areas.  And her genitalia was exposed essentially,  and she was also dead.  And this was seen as a terrible prodigy  requiring instant investigation of  Vestal Virgins.  And then there seems there might be  some political things happening in the background as well.  We cannot discount the fact that  these women are drawn from predominantly very elite families.  And sometimes it seems like the political machinations  that are happening in the male political world  are filtering into how the  Vestals from those families  are also being dealt with and perceived.  So is this just seeing a horrible prodigy and being like,  no, it has to be worse than just one Vestal.  Maybe it has to be more.  Is it also potentially something political  going on in the background  where they're like targeting different families  and dragging the  Vestals into it  because they're connected to those families?  There's a lot happening here.  But suffice it to say that having three  Vestals on trial  all at once is a bit of a problem.  And it also creates a huge gap  in terms of the  Vestal Virgins themselves.  Because if you're missing three,  well now you have to do a huge recruitment drive.  On the back of three just being accused  of incest and it not going well for them.  So you can imagine how enthusiastic anybody would be  to put forward their daughter for that.  

Yeah, I don't think I'd be volunteering mine.  

No, it's not the time.  

So if this is a punishment  for breaking your vow of chastity,  I have to ask,  was there a get out of being buried alive free card  if it was a sexual assault  that the Vestal wasn't actively participating…  She was assaulted and she didn't want to be not a virgin anymore.  

We don't have enough evidence to know, unfortunately.  When we get accusations of incest,  the best that can happen is that  that accusation is found to be false.  Either through an investigation of the Vestal's body  or through some sort of miraculous moment in time.  So there are definitely moments  where we have  Vestals who are accused  of being unchaste,  but they are able to reestablish  that they are indeed chaste.  But not to the extent that we know  that sexual assault may have been involved.  

That's a spanner in the works then.  

It is.  And I think we're dealing,  we have to keep in mind  that we're dealing with a situation  where it should be very explicitly known  that there is no possible way  to tell if somebody is a Virgin or not.  

Yeah, yeah, of course.  

This is completely social in its construct.  Virginity is a social concept,  not a biological one.  There is no way to look at somebody's body  and to know one way or the other.  So the Romans are in a very hazy sort of zone  of understanding because they've got this demand  for a physical virginity  for which we know cannot be proved,  but for which they will investigate  if they suspect it's not there.  So they are relying on strategies  to understand what is going on  with the female body that do not make sense  and fall within the remit of social  rather than biological.  And for the Romans,  that difference is not a distinction that they make.  An accusation of incestum is a problem regardless.  And it is quite possible  that innocent women were punished.  

Yeah, I'm guessing that there has to be  at least one.  I'm thinking of why they would want  such an extreme punishment for an unchaste Vestal.  What was the worst that they thought  that was going to happen  if a Vestal went with some men?  What's the worst that could happen?  

The absolute worst that could happen  is that the relationships between the Romans  and the gods would be completely ruined.  So the Romans operate from this idea  that they're always striving to maintain  what they call the Pax Deorum,  the peace of the gods.  And everything that they do is geared towards this.  I think a lot of people mistakenly  understand the Romans  as a highly militaristic and pragmatic people.  They are not by any stretch of the imagination.  Everything that they do  is bound up to their relationship with the gods.  So even within the context of the military,  they are looking for signs  about whether they should advance their army or not,  or is it the day to attack or not.  And this extends everywhere.  And the  Vestal Virgins for the Romans  are at the center of everything  that it means to hold the Pax Deorum.  These women carry a lot of responsibility  on their shoulders in terms of maintaining  the relationship with the gods.  Partly, this is because the fire  in the temple of Vesta  is thought to be the original fire of the world.  This is the first point of significance.  If that fire goes out for any reason,  it is considered a sign  that the  Vestals are not doing their job properly  and in custom could be at play.  So that fire sitting at the center of Rome,  considered to be the original fire,  is maintaining the peace of the gods.  It becomes the visual representation  of all of the other relationships  they're trying to maintain with the gods.  This is also reinforced by the idea  that the temple itself is circular.  So we don't see many circular temples in Rome.  So this visual feature is also standing out  because for most Romans,  they wouldn't necessarily be seeing the fire  on a regular basis.  It's inside the temple.  But the temple itself is designed  to be a visualization of the center as well.  So this idea of the circle.  

Other things that come into play here are  when we get into the Augustan period in particular,  we see poets like Horace emphasizing  the centrality of  Vestals to the safety of the state.  They become this visual and symbolic representation  of the power of Rome  to be able to continue to be powerful.  Part of this is not just about the flame itself,  but also about the things  that are then stored inside the temple.  There are a couple of things  that we think were kept inside the temple of Vesta.  One of them is the Palladium,  which is a small statue of Pallas Athena,  which was reputed to have fallen from the sky over Troy  and then brought to Rome by Aeneas.  Very convenient.  And the other thing that is kept in this temple  are the things that are called the signs of Imperium.  And we don't know what they are,  but they're supposed to be kept there.  And the idea is that if they ever disappear,  that's also a problem.  So the  Vestals have this dual role,  if you like, maintaining the fire,  but also guarding and preserving these very ancient,  kind of almost mythical, it feels,  objects that are part of what they have to do.  And if they don't look after all of these things  and the flame goes out,  all of a sudden the Vestal becomes  the representation of the potential fall of Rome.  Which is, that's a lot.  It's a lot.  

Yeah, no pressure.  So I'm being signed up to this at potentially as young as six.  I'm going to be serving for 30 years,  cloistered with women who I don't choose them.  I'm going to hope that they're nice to me.  It sounds like I'm not going to get the same kind of experiences  as all the rest of my teenage friends.  I'm never going to fall in love,  never going to have a baby and love my children.  And potentially Rome could bury me alive  at just the whiff of scandal,  even if I've not done anything.  That sounds like a whole lot of pressure.  So why would I want to be a Vestal?  What were the benefits of the role?  There's got to be something to make up for all of that, right?  

There are definitely some benefits.  You do get to see Rome from a very different perspective  when you're a Vestal than if you were any other woman.  Not that this is something  that you would be able to anticipate at six,  but you would probably have figured it out  by your early twenties being like, wait a minute,  I'm getting to do a lot of things here  that other women don't get to do.  Part of it is your ability to own property  and things like that, the legal potential.  But moreover is that the  Vestals are involved  in every public ritual that happens in the city.  And regardless of whether it is instrumentally related  to Vestal or something directly connected  to being a Vestal, they are present  at every other ritual as well.  They are one of the major priesthoods.  And the reason why they are involved in everything  is that one of their important tasks  is to create a substance called mola salsa,  which is ground up spelt and mixed with salt.  And it's prepared ritually a few times throughout the year.  And it is then used to sprinkle  over every sacrifice before it happens.  So in order for that to happen,  the  Vestals need to be present.  So not only do they have to make this substance  which can be sprinkled over,  but then they also have to be there to do the sprinkling.  So for  Vestals, there is a level of participation  in public ritual that does not take a rest.  Like they have a pretty full calendar throughout the year,  being in the public eye, attending ritual performances.  To make it clear as well,  when we talk about sprinkling this mola salsa  over sacrifices, this is sprinkling it  over the animals just before they are slaughtered ritually.   

So they are present at a lot of sacrifice.  So they're right in the middle of the beating heart  of Rome's religious calendar then?  

They are.  They are.  So anytime that you hear of an animal sacrifice happening,  you would have to also imagine that a Vestal would be present.  They may not always be directly involved  in the sacrificial act itself.  That was usually done by whichever priesthood  was in charge of that ritual.  But yeah, nevertheless, they would be present.  

So they're not stuck in their cloisters  in the house of Vesta then?  They get to actually go around the city.  Okay, that's kind of cool.  

They do.  They do.  And it's not like they have no social life.  They definitely get invited to parties and things like this.  They're just not allowed to have as much fun  at those parties as some of the other guests.  And definitely we have stories from the early Republic  of  Vestals who are going to parties  and completely allowed.  You're allowed to go to a dinner party.  But getting themselves into a little bit of trouble  because they're a little bit funny  and they tell good stories and they make good jokes.  And people are like, oh, I don't know  if that's quite modest enough for a Vestal.  

Oh, okay.  Having too much fun, not allowed.  Okay. So are they allowed to have bodyguards with them  when they're out and about having fun?  Because I'm guessing that this is a bit of a dodgy moment  if they're at a party and if a man winks at them,  they might be buried alive.  Do they have some kind of protection?  

Eventually, yes.  So not for a long time.  For a long time they're just out and about winging it  as far as we can tell.  And maybe have some personal attendantswith them  which would be totally fine.  There are definitely other people besides the  Vestals  living in the house of the  Vestals.  So potentially they've got their serving made with them  and things like this.  But there is a point in the late Republic.  So this is around about the same time  that we're thinking about Caesar being on the up and up.  A Vestal is going to a dinner party and she's coming home  and she gets harassed by a guy on her way home.  And this should never have happened.  First of all,  Vestals look very different  from all other women.  They've got a completely different style of dress  which makes them stand out immediately.  So the fact that she got harassed is a problem.  And this immediately leads to the appointment  of a Lictor for each Vestal.  And a Lictor is a guy that is a bit of a bodyguard  and he carries around a bundle of sticks  all tied together called the Fasces.  Very nice.  And he's allowed to beat people up with it.  So all of a sudden these figures of Lictors  that are usually associated with Roman Magistrates  are now also assigned to  Vestal Virgins.  To a much lesser degree because they only get one each.  But just in case they need it,  they've got a guy with a bunch of sticks  who can beat people up for them.  

Yeah, because I'm thinking that catcalling a Vestal  probably isn't a good idea.  

I think it was a mistake.  

Yeah, okay.  So what are the kind of day-to-day activities  apart from these sacrifices?  What are their jobs inside the temple?  

The major job that they have  and the one that cannot be missed  is watching the flame.  So the flame of Vesta is sitting inside  the temple of Vesta  and it needs to be maintained at all times  because if it goes out, problems within custom.  So their first job is this 24-7, 365 days of the year  watch of the flame.  Super important.  So chances are they have a rotation for this  and they've got a plan  and they know what's going on with that  because somebody's always got to be there.  And I think if you've got a young recruit  that you've just brought in,  probably you might need two people  when it's the young one's turn to watch the flame  just to make sure that they know how serious this is  what you have to do to maintain it  and all that sort of jazz.  So that's the first part.  The second part that's very important  is that on a daily basis  they also need to cleanse the temple.  This means that they've got a couple of locations  potentially that we think  that they may have gone to for this.  There's the Fons Juturna  which is very close to the temple  just around the corner, not very far away at all.  We think they might have gone there  for the ritual water they needed for the purification.  And then there's another claim in Plutarch  that they may have walked a little bit further  about a 20 minute walk to a different fountain  the Fons Camina to collect the water.  Either way, this is a daily ritual for them  which is then stepped up in a really big way  in June when we have the Vestalia.  The Vestalia is obviously the festival of Vesta  and it's at this point that the temple becomes open  to certain members of the public  who don't usually get to go inside.  And as a result of that, the temple is then considered  to be highly impure and needs a thorough cleanse  and they do a special annual cleanse as well.  

Uh huh. Okay.  So how old is the cult itself?  Can we tell whether this is something  that Rome has had from its very, very beginnings  or is it something that was slightly newer  by the time of Julius Caesar?  

We think it is almost as old as Rome itself.  So at least in the apocryphal tales  that are told about Rome's foundation,  it seems to be the case that cities in the Latium region  all have their own Vesta cult.  And part of the reason that we can tell this  is that we get this story for the foundation of Rome,  Romulus and Remus.  And Romulus and Remus's mother  is in some cases positioned as a  Vestal Virgin.  She can't be a  Vestal Virgin of Rome.  That's not possible. Rome hasn't been founded yet.  But she is thought to be a Vestal in the city of Alba Longa,  which is a little bit further south and east of Rome  and up in the hills a little bit.  And we've got this idea that there is a Vestal cult there.  And it makes sense that as Romulus and Remus grow up  and they move and they create the city of Rome,  that one of the things that gets established there  is the cult of Vesta as well in honor of the mother.  

So you didn't get buried alive despite having two children...  

In some stories, she does.  In some stories, it does not go well for the mother of Romulus and Remus.  In some, she escapes and she gets married to a river god.  So that's nice.  But yes, in others, she's locked up and then not buried alive,  I have to say.  So it's not so bad, but she does sort of get busted out by a cousin.  Okay.  Got to get you out of here.  So yeah, but the fact that she endures a rape by the god Mars,  or potentially her uncle in either case,  is problematic for her future in terms of is she a Vestal?  Is it incestum?  This is a classic case of a sexual assault and the woman is still punished.  

Of course.  

I'm not going to defend that.  Rome is terrible.  

It is!!  And we should all know that by now.  How many episodes have we done?  Good grief.  

Yeah.  

Apart from their ritual life in and out of the temple,  they're allowed to go to parties.  Have they got any other ways to have fun?  

Well, I don't know if they're choosing these things as things to have fun,  but they do have certain weird privileges at times.  So there is this idea that if a criminal is up for execution,  but manages to cross the path of a  Vestal Virgin on his way to being executed,  and it can be proven that that was an accident and not pre-planned,  well then he can be set free.  Now is the Vestal having fun with that?  I don't know.  Is that fun for her?  Not sure.  And we also have a case of a Vestal called Claudia,  and this dates to about 146 BCE,  where one of her male relatives wants to celebrate a triumph  and the Senate says, no, that wasn't triumph worthy.  He did a good job, but not everybody gets a triumph, buddy.  And he's like, you know what?  I think I want to have my triumph.  And in order to make that happen,  his relative, the Vestal Claudia, stands in the chariot with him.  And one of the privileges that  Vestals have is that their body is supposed to be untouchable.  So theoretically, nobody can stop her because they can't lay a finger on her.  She's inviolable.  So she stands in that chariot, and boy, does she participate in that triumph  because it just happens because they can't stop him.  And she's standing right next to her male relative and it all goes ahead.  Now, I don't think the Senate's very happy about that,  but did the Vestal Claudia have a good time?  Potentially, yes.  

So they're not allowed to be touched at all?  

By anybody.  Correct.  

What does that mean if they get ill?  

I don't know.  

Yeah, I just thought…  Can you imagine not being able to see a doctor  because they might say that Rome is about to fall if it puts a bandage on your leg?  

Don't touch me!  I'm inviolable!  I am assuming this means that only with consent,  which can only mean that in case of incestum, the Vestal must be guilty because she said okay.  

Oh, wow.  

From a Roman perspective, I wonder how that would work.  So for comparison, the Tribune of the Plebs,  this political figure that is supposed to represent the people of Rome,  they are considered to be inviolable for the period of time for which they hold the office.  The idea is that citizens in trouble and they found themselves on the wrong side of some  patrician and they're going to get beaten up, they can run to the Tribune of the Plebs  directly and sort of just be like, help me, and nobody can touch the Tribune of the Plebs.  So they can sort of interpose and be like, stay away from this guy.  Put themselves across the door of the house and be like,  this is a safe house and nobody can get in and everyone has to respect that.  We see a similar thing happening for the  Vestal Virgins, but it's more all-encompassing  because partly the idea is that they are always holding the position of  Vestal Virgin.  There is no end point for that.  So their inviolability never runs out either.  

Oh, yeah.  The ones that come up to the age of retirement but choose not to,  I'm starting to wonder whether going into a normal life after all of this would just  have been such a culture shock that that's why they decide to stay.  

I think it is highly restrictive, there's no doubt about that, but it also becomes  a pattern of living which is very specific.  So how would you return under the power of a pater familias after being your own woman  in particular ways for 30 plus years?  So seeing the beating center of Roman religious life day in and day out,  becoming familiar with the daily ritual process of it's my turn to watch the flame  or it's my time to collect the water to cleanse the temple.  They weren't just sitting around waiting for nothing to happen,  they were incredibly busy women so they had all of these tasks ahead of them and their lives  were visibly very different from any other Roman woman.  So even other women who served as priestesses of other gods to certain extent had far less  to do in terms of their ritual obligations than the  Vestals.  So you end up living a very particular kind of life and it might be the case that  you become very used to that and if you are very used to that and  yeah it's maybe hard to see what you would do differently at a certain point.  

So if they're being chosen from these very elite families do we know of any  Romans that we would know the names of that had sisters or daughters in this order?  

Yes and no.  So the problem with naming conventions in ancient Rome is that women are named after gens essentially and the gens is like the broad family group, it's a bit like a clan structure.  So I can talk to you about a Vestal called Claudia and I know she's a Claudian  but I can't tell you whether she stood on the chariot of her brother, her uncle, her father.  Even the source material doesn't give us quite enough to go on.  We also know of a Vestal Licinia who was accused in the sort of 70s BC  of maybe engaging in incest with Crassus but they're related and they come out and say so.  They're like we're just doing a property deal because we're cousins you know  and it's like it's not like that and everyone's like oh yeah it makes sense,  Crassus because he's Marcus Licinia's Crassus and she's a Vestal Licinia.  They are definitely from a related family. Now what exactly the nature of that connection was  like we're not really sure. So these are the things that become very hard to track  within the context of Roman history because Romans are very happy to give very specific names to  the males of their families even though those specific names often are repeated.  That makes it hard for us but they have layers to those naming conventions which don't  exist for women. The women just kind of it's Claudia one, Claudia two, Claudia three and Claudia  four and you're like cool. So you had four daughters and they're like oh yeah we called  them all Claudia. 

From a male perspective it sounds like it could be very useful to have  a Vestal in the family but it also sounds like it could be quite risky. 

Potentially yes.  The risk obviously to the patriarchy of having a female relative inside the Vestal  is that they are no longer under your remit as a subject. So the idea that a Vestal no longer  sits under the potestas of her pater familias is maybe quite concerning from a patriarchal  perspective because yes she is your relative but she is now no longer legally obligated to you.  So that's a tricky thing. Having said that she does have her eye right on the inside of  all the ritual doings of Rome to a certain extent. So that could be very valuable information to have  as long as this child that you sort of pushed out of your house at age 6 to 10  and were like go live over there is still willing to deal with you as a family member  and I think that might really depend on the characters involved to how well that might go.  

It's interesting isn't it because the character of a six-year-old  it's so difficult to guess how well they're going to adapt through that kind of lifestyle.  I can only imagine that there has to have been a couple of rebels  throughout Roman history. 

I would assume so for sure definitely. 

What is that training process  like to kind of ensure that by the time these women reach an age where they could leave  the order that they choose not to? 

I think that's really interesting as well.  

Yeah we've already discussed about consequences of breaking your vows but I'm guessing that  there was a kind of balance between being strict with them as they're growing up  but also having to make it attractive enough of a prospect that they're not going to  potentially ruin Rome by rebelling. It sounds like a really tough ask for young women.  

Yeah it's a huge ask definitely and we know that there's got to be a percentage of the  young  Vestals accused of incestum where it's what happened. It would make sense. I think  it would be very unlikely that every child that is chosen for this order not necessarily  knowing what they're getting into would come out the other side of that and be fine with it.  I think there must have been some cases where that was definitely, that rebellion was happening  and potentially caught as well. It's I think also curious that there is a pattern to these  things in Roman history and sometimes these things are pushed for other agendas as well.  

I'm thinking of under the Emperor Domitian we have one of Pliny the Younger's letters  is one of our best pieces of evidence for what is happening to a Vestal in this moment of being  accused of incestum because the understanding that comes through from Pliny's letter is that  Domitian wanted to show that he was a strong Emperor and it had been too long since a  Vestal had been buried of incestum so he was going to show his power by having a live  burial happen. He wanted to do it and he picked the chief Vestal; so within the six  there is one that is considered to be the most in charge. You get elevated to that position at  some point and Cornelia was the Vestal who was considered the chief Vestal at the time  and she insists throughout the entire process that she is innocent. She's like I have served  in this role for so many years. All of the military victories that you have had  are the victories that you can pin to me. Have you not won under my leadership? She takes  credit for all of the positive things that have happened in Domitian's rule. She goes out there  and she states it.  Vestals are one of the few women that are allowed to defend themselves  if they are accused of anything. They can speak in their own voice in the court of law  and she stands up and she says I produced all of this victory for you. How could I be the one  who is unchaste? This is ridiculous and she continues to argue that case in various ways  up until the point of the procession where she makes it clear that she does not want to  be part of this. She goes through with this procession because she can't get out of it  and as she is being lowered, she's stepping down to go into this underground chamber,  there is a moment where she seems to almost slip and one of the guards offers a hand to help her  and Pliny records her giving him the most filthy look. Like how dare you even attempt  to touch me? I am still inviolable. I am not guilty and Domitian is just trying to show his  power so we get these moments where it's highly politicised and I don't know where I was going  with that point but I feel like it was a good story to tell. 

If it was to make me angry,  then it's worked. Domitian showing that he is a big strong emperor by killing a woman,  of course. 

Good job, Domitian. 

Now I am angry and I never met the woman.  Do we have examples of vessels being used in this politicised way and the populace who,  I'm guessing they see them quite regularly, being so angry at this treatment on their behalf  that they protest or riot? 

No, we never see it getting to that point. We certainly see  like coming through in Pliny's letter that he also believes that Cornelia must have been innocent  but does it lead to protest in the street? No.  

Because I'm thinking about the things that Romans did protest for and did riot over.  I was hoping so much that the death of a vessel might be one of them.  

Not as far as we're aware, I'm sorry. 

They've let me down again.  

The Romans are good at doing that, just when you think they've reached new lows.  

Yeah, the bar was on the floor and they're just limboing under it. Okay,  get out the shovels! This cult is incredibly important and it is incredibly ancient,  but we don't have it anymore. When does it end?  

So it ends around about the fourth century. Part of the things that happen is this  transition over time towards Christianity. This has consequences for all things to do with the  religious life of ancient Rome as we understand it in the Republic and the Empire. The  increasing shift towards Christianity ends up producing a kind of split in the senatorial  leadership between people who hold on to the old ways and people who are embracing the new  ways. This ultimately leads us to this point where we have the closure of the temple of  Vesta at a certain point. This is posited to be around 394 CE, so quite late in the fourth  century. We don't have heaps of evidence for what happens next, but we do have a sort of  apocryphal story of the last Vestal. Some credit this with being a woman known as Cloelia  Concordia. Others, she is known as Claudia. But the idea seems to be, and this is like  a neat bow around the whole Vestal Order, is that at the closure of the Vestal Temple,  this last Vestal converts to Christianity.  

Oh yeah, how convenient. So we don't see the Greeks being an inspiration for this order,  but can we see this order being an inspiration for Christian nunneries?  

Potentially, yes. So part of what we see with what's going on in the fourth century  is that elite women are taking a real interest in following a Christian path. This is leading  to things like women going on pilgrimages and women starting to set up places where women  can come together and explore their faith. This kind of starts to feel like a bit of  a precursor to what will become nunneries. But these are women who are engaging in  theological argument with bishops and letter writing campaigns. All of those things are  quite different from the things that  Vestals would do. But nonetheless, you can see how  there might be a little bit of an alignment if we're thinking about the  Vestals having  lived in that house that is right next to their temple, which is right next to the forum  for what, over a thousand years, and being right in the center of town. That always being  visual signal to other women about what might be possible for their lives if they decide  they could do something different and they weren't just going to follow the  sorts of outlines for their lives that Roman men were suggesting to them were the only options.  It's a potential. I don't think we can draw a one-for-one line between those points,  but you can see how there might be some inspiration there.  

Were there any other priesthoods for women in the Roman Empire where virginity was  or being cloistered was a requirement?  

The only example that I can think of off the top of my head is thinking about,  we have a series of priesthoods called flamens. The flamen is a significant priesthood. They  cover a range of different gods and we've got married couples in operation together. They do  have moments where they have to abstain. That is a ritually important thing for them to do,  it's not all the time. We also get some ideas, more broadly speaking, that there are patrician  and plebeian versions of goddesses to concepts like puticidia. This idea of being well-mannered,  appropriately behaved. Slightly different from being chaste, but there are times where it  would be appropriate for them as well to abstain from sexual relations. We don't get  some of the really interesting funny stuff like the Greeks do where we have Aristophanes  and the sex strike going on and things like that, which would be much more, I don't think  the Romans have that kind of sense of humor, to be honest. There are definitely moments where  the women are like, let's be a little bit restrained. Not all the time though.  

Were any male priests required to abstain permanently?  

No, not permanently, not as far as I'm aware.  

Were there any male priesthoods where death was the consequence of breaking a vow?  

Not as far as I'm aware of. 

Okay. Listeners won't be able to see this, but I'm sinking  just further and further into my chair. Of course. 

Disappearing from the screen as we speak!

Okay. It's one of those roles, isn't it, where you can see why it would have been  attractive in many ways, but in others, really, really quite unpleasant.  

Definitely. It's a high level of risk. High level of risk.  

You could probably say that that was still true of pretty much anything that a woman  was doing in the ancient world, right? There's a high level of risk pretty much for all of  them. Maybe not quite to this level... 

This is a new level of risk, I would say.  Being told at the ages of six to 10 that it will never happen and you being like,  I'm six to 10, I don't know what that means. Then five years later being like, wait a minute,  I was conned. I can imagine that that would be an experience that many young   Vestals went through as they went through puberty as part of the order and how they  managed to get through that and maybe how the older  Vestals helped them through that  process. We'll see.  

I'm just thinking if a year or so from this episode coming out, there's going to be a novel  or two, a feminist telling of the life of a rebel Vestal, then I think we too will be owed  some royalties for that, for the idea. Maybe I'll write one! You never know. 

 Do it. Do it. There's plenty of stories to tell about  Vestals and I think they occupy  this very unique space in Rome. That's part of the reason why they've fascinated  me for as many years as they have because they are doing something that is completely  different. Yes, it is within the confines of what patriarchy has suggested is required  of them, but within that, they do have this potential to see so much and to be so influential  that I think that tension to me is really fascinating. It's both constraint and potential.  

For any listeners who want to learn more, has anyone written an accessible book that's  just about  Vestals yet? 

I would say that it is academic,  but it is I would say quite accessible. It is one by Robin Wildfang. Now,  let me see if I can roll over to my bookshelf.  Oh look, it's called Rome's  Vestal Virgins. That's very easy to remember, by Robin Wildfang.  And I think it does engage with the ancient evidence, but it's not written in a way that  makes it feel like you couldn't possibly appreciate what it's trying to say.  

Okay. Maybe it's a book that you could write. History of  Vestals. 

Oh look, I'm working on it. 

 Tis a secret. 

No one must know.  

Well, it's been fascinating talking about  Vestals with you because they are such an  unusual group of women. It's fantastic to get an insight into their very unusual,  extraordinary lives. So thank you so much for coming onto the podcast to talk about them.  

An absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.