How do Museums Work?

Transcript:

Dear listener, this may come as a shock to you, but I adore museums.  I'm the type of person to drag whoever I'm with on holiday to as many museums as possible.  I love museums so much that I worked in them for about 20 years,  and I adore how they have everything from the wonderful to the really, really weird.  But if there's one thing that I've learned working in museums, talking to the people who come to them,  it's that some people really don't know how museums work on the inside.  So I thought I'd change that today. This is your golden ticket to Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory museum version.  And I have a very, very special guest today who's going to explain exactly what goes on behind closed doors.  Would you like to introduce yourself, please? 

Hello, yes, I am Ben Paites, and I am Senior Collections and Learning Curator at Colchester Museums. 

Ben is going to walk us through everything we need to know about how museums work.  So the first question that I have is, can you talk about the museum that you work at specifically? 

Yes, so Colchester Museums are made up of three museums, all in Colchester, of course.  And they're actually all within eyesight of one another, which is quite nice because you go to some cities  and they have multiple museums, but you have to do a 20, half an hour minute walk to get to each one.  But if you stand at what is the war memorial in Colchester, you can see all three of them quite easily.  So we have Colchester Castle, which is a Norman castle on top of the foundations of a Roman temple  with a 17th century roof. So the building itself is quite interesting,  but it contains predominantly our archaeological collections.  So going back to the Bronze Age up until roughly the siege of Colchester in 1648.  Then we have Holly Trees Museum, which is our social history museum, also in another historical building.  This is a late, well kind of an 18th century building that was built as a residency  and then later on became one of our museums in the early 1900s.  And it contains all sorts of things from domestic life to a huge number of clocks,  because we have quite a significant clock collection in Colchester.  And it's also the home of the Visitor Information Centre.  Visitor Colchester is based within Holly Trees Museum.  And then finally, most excitingly, we have our Natural History Museum,  which is about to undergo a redevelopment and it hasn't really been changed in decades, to be honest.  We've had kind of some updates over the years, but the major kind of displays that we have there  haven't changed for quite a long time.  So we are about to completely renovate that, which is very exciting.  But that contains specimens, animals, all those sorts of things from the local area. 

So you're the perfect person to talk to, because you cover so much in your museums.  And that brings us to a really interesting question.  You're talking about redeveloping one of the museums.  How does a museum decide what goes on display?  How do they get what goes on display? 

Oh, they're both very good and very long answers to those questions.  So I'll start with decisions, because especially nowadays,  people working in museums, people who come into a job in museums,  you will already have the collections.  You'll already have decades or sometimes centuries worth of collections  that have been sitting there in stores, some of which have been out before,  some of which may be not.  So a big part of our decision-making process that we have is getting things out  that haven't been out maybe ever, or at least not for a very long time.  So that is one thing we try and do.  It's hard to know, because usually the records won't say  when they've been displayed until quite recently.  So we now have, most museums will have digital databases.  They'll have online records, but previously it was all paper.  And you'd very rarely add to those paper records  once an object was in the collection.  So you wouldn't say every time it goes on display or anything like that.  But now, every time something goes on display, every time something moves,  every time an object moves from one room to another, from one box to another,  we update its location and record that information  so we know where that object's been and what's happened to it.  So if it goes on display, we know when it's been on display and what for. 

So yeah, we try and make sure objects come out  that haven't been out for a very long time, if at all.  But equally, for the sake of ease and simplicity,  and for conservation reasons, we might bring objects out multiple times  just because we know they are suitable to go on display.  So in the build-up to an object going on display,  usually it will have to go through the conservation process  and our conservator will have to have a look at it,  make sure it's stable, make sure it can be displayed with the right lighting,  the right environmental conditions, all those sorts of things.  So if an object's already been through that recently,  it's a lot easier to just put that one out again.  So an example of that I will give is a few years ago,  I did an exhibition called Wicked Spirits,  which was all about the witch trials and folklore and superstition.  And we had a set of, I think Bronze Age, maybe Neolithic flint arrowheads  that went out on display.  And then with the Mythical Creatures exhibition  that we've just had at Colchester Castle,  we wanted to talk about elf shot and fairy bolts again.  And so rather than finding a new set of flint arrowheads,  we thought, well, we'll just get the same ones out again  because we know they're good, we know they're stable.  We've already mounted them so we know how to display them,  so it's easier to kind of just reuse those ones.  But if we're doing a whole new topic,  we tend to try and get objects out that haven't been on display before  because most museums, I know Colchester museums,  we often estimate in the hundreds of thousands of objects in our collection. 

But if you counted every single pot shard,  it's going to easily be over millions, honestly,  because there's just boxes and boxes and bags full of the stuff in our stores.  So some of those will unlikely never go on display,  but they have other purposes.  They are there for research, they are there for a lot of different other reasons.  So everything has its value in a museum, even if it isn't displayed.  But in terms of that decision making about what goes on display  and how we decide what goes on display,  a lot of the time it's what hasn't been on for a while.  And of course it has to fit a narrative.  So the narrative tends to come first, actually, for us.  So rather than saying what objects do we have and how can we make that work,  we'll say we want to do an exhibition on mythical creatures.  We want to do an exhibition on the gladiators,  which was one a few years ago, of course,  and that has been touring around the country since.  And then we try and find the objects to make it work.  And that often takes years.  So these things will take years in planning  before actually becoming an exhibition or a display,  because you have to kind of really think about a lot of different things.  You have to think about kind of what makes sense.  The narrative you want to give,  as I mentioned the conservation requirements of those objects.  You might need loans, which I'm sure we'll get onto later on,  but loans are another kind of factor in a lot of this.  So there's a lot of things to involve. 

And of course, all of this is going alongside your normal day job as a curator  or kind of whatever role you are within museums involved in exhibitions.  You kind of have to do this whilst maybe running some school events  or maybe running some tours or maybe doing some other collections work.  You're having a researcher come in to look at your millions of potsherds.  There's all these other things going on in your job.  Exhibition is just one tiny part of that.  So, yeah, it's quite a long and complex process, really.  So for permanent exhibitions, who is in charge of deciding  what's so important that it's always going to be on display for years at a time?  So that can vary as well.  And I think it probably varies on the size of museums, to be fair, to be honest.  So smaller museums will have smaller teams.  And so actually, there'll probably be maybe more people involved  in some of those decision-making processes,  whereas larger museums will have entire teams dedicated to interpretation and content.  And so it would be just them who are focusing on deciding what goes into those permanent displays.  So it can vary.  But for us, we kind of have a mixture.  We also, and I think a lot of museums do this,  we also do a lot of research and evaluation.  So we do want to know what the public want to see.  It's not just us curators in our ivory towers saying,  oh, I think the public want to see all this Roman stuff  because that's what I would be doing. 

But we actually go to the public, go to schools, go to community groups,  and ask them what they want to see.  And so for the natural history redevelopment that's coming up,  we did have over October half term in 2025,  we had a whole week where various members of staff from museums  sat in natural history in the gallery and just spoke to people.  And we had various forms of visual evaluation.  We had kind of stickers you can put on different things you might want to see.  We had a tree where you could kind of write a label and hang it on the tree.  We had things for children.  We had things for adults.  It was kind of a varied way of engaging with the public  to get their feedback as to what they might want to see in the new museum.  And so that's been really helpful in informing our ideas about what people want to see.  And then we have to then go away and say, OK, what do we have?  Do we have that stuff?  Do we have a T-Rex?  No.  So what can we do that's kind of similar that might be just as exciting  that will draw people into the museums?  So that's kind of how it works.  You can pay for external freelance interpretation and content providers,  creators.  So you can pay for someone to come in, do all that work and kind of create that.  And then it gets kind of created as an external company  and we'll kind of put that all together.  So again, it varies in terms of how all these things work.  But usually there'll be a combination of specialists in the subject  and variably called kind of learning or education  or different teams who are focused on maybe schools or that interpretative process  that will then inform what actually goes in.  Because as we all know, academics will have one level of what's important  and how to present it.  And then the learning people will have a different level of what's important  and how to present it.  So it's kind of marrying those two together  and trying to get a perfect balance of that is how we end up getting those permanent displays. 

So we've talked about curators a little bit.  We've talked about the learning team a little bit.  What are some of the other kind of other roles in a museum  that someone might be able to do as a job? 

Again, it varies from museum to museum.  Most museums will have people on the front line.  Of course, they are arguably the most important people in the museums  because they are the people who greet the visitors.  They're the people who often deliver the tours.  They are the people who, at least in the case of cultural museums,  they also deliver our schools program.  So they kind of run the school sessions and greet the schools  and coordinate them going to the lunchrooms.  All of those things, which sound like, you know, they're the minutiae,  but they are the most important jobs.  All of those jobs are done by our front of house team, the visitor services team.  So they do a whole variety of things.  And within that team, I know for a fact, each individual member will have their own preferences,  their own responsibilities, their own things.  So you can make it your own.  You can kind of say, well, actually, I'm really interested in school sessions,  so I really want to do some of those.  Some people might really love the shop  and really want to engage with stock  and what new things we can have for sale in the shop  and all those kinds of things.  So it's kind of a good role where you can kind of get a lot of involvement  in lots of different aspects of the museum and what's happening in there.  And then even within that, you have different levels.  So we have visitor assistance, we have duty officers  who are kind of a bit more managerial.  Then we have a senior duty officer who manages all of the team.  So, you know, if you want management responsibilities,  you've got that within that role as well.  So there's lots of different opportunities within a front of house with services teams.  There's also, for us, we have a separate exhibitions and display team.  So they are the designers and they create the kind of vision  for our exhibitions and displays. 

So as curators, we put together the objects and write the text,  but they will then take that and turn it into something visually exciting  and fun that is not just black and white text with a few pictures.  They make it into something that's a bit more engaging  and help us as well in terms of creating that narrative  and that flow and guiding visitors through that exhibition  or that display and making it kind of all together, really.  We also have, which isn't in every museum,  we also host the Port of Antiquity Scheme's  Find Liaison Officer and the Find Liaison Assistant.  So they are based with us in the museum's office.  So for those that don't know,  Port of Antiquity Scheme is a national scheme  that records archaeological material found by the public,  predominantly metal detectorists, but it can be literally anyone.  If you find something you think is archaeological,  you can show it to your local Find Liaison Officer  and they will identify it.  They record it for free on this database  and then it becomes a free asset for researchers  to look at, to use in their research  to better understand the past in Britain.  They also coordinate treasure.  So the Treasure Act, which has changed variably since 1996  when it started, is a law essentially  that means that anyone who finds anything that qualifies as treasure  has to report it to the Find Liaison Officer  who then reports it to the coroner  and it goes through a process  and museums have the opportunity to then acquire that object  if they want to and if they can afford to  because sometimes these things come up  quite expensive treasure cases  and of course museums have limited funds  so it's not guaranteed that a museum will acquire a treasure case  but at least they have the first opportunity to do so  if they are able to.  So that team operates with us as well. 

So that's another group.  And also we have loads of project posts  and project offices for various different things going on.  We are a national portfolio organisation.  So national portfolio organisations are museums, theatres, galleries,  places of the arts and culture that have been designated  by the Arts Council as leading examples in their field.  And so we get given a bit of extra funding  to be able to continue that leading  and doing various exciting things  and we have roles related to that.  So we have project offices and other things related to that  that allow that work to continue.  So a lot of that involves working with community groups,  improving diversity within the workforce,  improving diversity within the visitor numbers  and there's loads of different projects  that we kind of run within that.  So it's a really important part of what we do as a museum.  And again that sort of really goes on behind the scenes.  Most people won't know that's going on.  That's just something that kind of happens  and we have people, staff who are dedicated  to making sure that work happens. 

So full disclosure, I worked in museums for I think 20 or so years  usually in the visitor services team doing various bits and bobs.  And I can honestly say it is the most diverse career.  I have gone from cooking Tudor recipes  in a reconstructed Tudor building  to firing cannons every day.  Literally, getting paid to do it.  Wonderful, wonderful career.  It changes every day.  What would you say, for someone who wants to look at museums  as a potential career,  what should that person be doing in terms of  getting qualifications and approaching museums for work? 

Qualifications are, I would arguably say,  is less important, really.  Unfortunately, the climate within the entire,  not just museum sector, jobs in general,  degrees are almost essential,  which I don't think they need to be for a lot of things.  And we are working within cultural museums,  we are working to move away from that.  But if you do want to do a degree,  I thoroughly encourage you to do so  and definitely do it in something you love.  Don't try and do a degree in something  you think will get you a job.  Do it in something you love,  because it's three years of your life,  you're going to be studying it for a very long time  and you don't want to get bored of it,  you don't want to get frustrated of it,  you want to be able to be studying something  you're passionate about for that time.  And that is the key thing, really,  to set you up with the skills,  the research skills, the writing skills,  the critical thinking skills,  the project management skills,  all of those transferable skills,  to then get you a job in museums or wherever.  Recently, particularly,  a lot of universities are starting to offer  a Museum Studies degree.  Yeah.  Are they worth the paper they're written on  or should you be studying something that you love instead?  I certainly learnt more about museums,  working in museums,  than I think I ever could have done.  And I didn't do Museum Studies,  but I did museum-based modules  in my degrees.  So again, not at my BA level,  but when I did my MA,  I did a Managing Museums module,  which was essentially just meeting people  who worked in museums.  And to be honest,  that was the best way to learn about it,  which brings me onto what my second point was going to be,  and that also gives me a bit of an ick still  that we have to encourage people to do this,  but volunteering. 

Volunteering is the main way.  And I started volunteering in museums  since I was about 15, 16.  Me too.  So, you know, you can't...  But you don't have to start young,  but I think a lot of people who do end up in museums  do start volunteering at quite an early age,  and then just continue.  And partly that is because that's how you can learn some skills  and learn what goes on in museums.  But again, it's meeting those people  who have those different roles in museums  and understanding what those different roles are  and getting a better idea of what you want to do.  Because as we've mentioned,  there's so many different roles.  You can't just say,  I want to work in museums,  because you might end up in a job you actually hate doing.  And you then want to be,  oh, actually, I don't want to be a curator.  I want to be this role.  But you're already in this role,  so you can't...  There's very little sideways movement within museums.  It's so hard to move from one type of job to another,  because they are seen as quite distinct  kind of responsibilities and roles.  So, yeah, try and spend as much time as you can  figuring out what it is exactly you want to do in museums.  And as I said,  those roles will vary from one museum to the next,  but at least be like,  do I want to be learning?  Do I want to be working with schools?  Do I want to be on the front line?  Do I want to be behind the scenes,  working with collections?  Do I want to be doing the bookings?  Because that might be enough for you.  You might just love being in a museum.  You don't want to do the collection stuff.  You don't want to meet the schools,  but you just love museums and you want to be in them.  So do the bookings and do all the admin  and all that kind of stuff.  There will be something for everyone  in a museum for you to do.  But figure that out as early as possible,  because you don't want to waste time  going down the wrong route  and then having to backtrack  and somehow find a way into somewhere else,  because it's really difficult. 

The main role, I would say,  where very early on  you need to think about  whether this is what you want to do,  because you will need qualifications,  is conservation.  That's the only one, really,  because you do need conservation degrees  and qualifications and stuff to do it  just because it's dangerous  not to have qualifications.  No, you wouldn't get employed  if you don't have conservation qualifications  to be a conservator  because you're mixing chemicals,  because you're working with dangerous machinery,  because of all those things.  So if you decide, yes, I want to be a conservator,  that's the one where as early as possible,  you need to start thinking about it.  You could do a degree in archaeology  and then go into conservation as an MA,  but you can do conservation degrees  outright from the beginning,  or do chemistry.  I know plenty of chemists  who have gone into conservation later on,  because they love museums  and the chemistry industrial sector  is probably quite boring.  At least it compared to museums.  So they've done their chemistry qualifications  and then they're like,  actually, I love museums too.  I'll go into conservation  and work through that route.  So again, there's lots of different routes,  but conservation is the one  where I would say,  if that's what you want to do,  you need to think about qualifications  as soon as possible.  So for those who don't know,  what would a conservationist in a museum  be doing day to day?  So there's the obvious things people think of,  which is restorative conservation.  So if something breaks, they fix it,  or at least they try to.  If something has had other forms of damage,  so a lot of metal objects corrode and rust,  you get a problem with bronze disease,  which is horrible green stuff  that comes on copper alloy objects.  You have to monitor that  and clean that if that's needed. 

In Colchester, we all take part  in conservation to an extent  in that we support the conservator  in some of those roles.  So the less glamorous is what's called IPM,  integrated pest management.  So that's insects and other things.  So we have pest traps  all over our museums and stores,  and we monitor those,  and we gather those in every few months  and look at them under a microscope  and see what there is.  There are a ton of spiders  in museums and museum stores,  and so it doesn't help  if you're not a fan of spiders.  And moths.  Some people don't like moths.  Moths are bad.  You don't get them a lot,  but moths are a bad pest  because they eat clothing and other stuff,  but you can get them.  That's kind of another thing.  It's not pleasant.  And our big store  is essentially an old warehouse  that's been converted.  You get mice sometimes.  I have discovered a dead mouse  in the stores once.  That wasn't pleasant.  But keeping an eye out  for all those different things,  that's one of them.  So integrated pest management  is what it's called, IPM.  That's one of the roles  that the conservators do.  And there's the environmental monitoring.  So humidity and temperature  plays an important role  in our stores and in our museums  to make sure that the objects  and specimens are being preserved okay,  that they're not going to have any damage  because of it being too moist  or too dry or too hot or too cold.  And again, in most museums,  if you're in a converted warehouse,  it's really difficult to control  the temperature and things.  We're fortunate that our warehouse  had a complete refit out only 2017, really.  So all of our internal stores  are very well regulated  and we have kind of dehumidifiers  and regulated heating  and all that kind of stuff in there.  So it's all good.  But you still have to monitor it  because you never know  what might change  if a machine stops working,  if the heating stops working.  So it's that.  And then it's preventative stuff. 

And it's like I mentioned earlier  is kind of looking at  if objects are going on display,  checking that they are in an okay condition,  checking that they can be displayed  without any risk of further damage  or any damage at all.  So things like paper  or things like that  can only be in certain light levels.  So you have to kind of make sure  that they are within those light levels.  They also, because they're so fragile,  they have to be mounted in a certain way.  So you have to kind of make sure  that they are secured  and they're not going to slide off their mounts  or something else will fall onto the...  That's happened in museums before.  Another object will fall off  and fall onto another object.  And that's the one that breaks,  not the thing that fell in the first place.  So, you know,  there's all these kinds of things  to try and prevent damage happening  as well as fixing things  that have had damage. 

And what I will say from my career  is that if someone is looking for a job  where you really relish a challenge,  spontaneity is a great thing to have  because all kinds of things can happen  if you're the kind of person  who really likes putting out fires  in a slight panic.  It can be a great job.  So we've talked a little bit  about light levels there.  And I want to move on to photography  because quite often in museums  or particularly exhibitions,  there will be signs saying,  please don't use flash  or please don't take photos at all.  And I know that this can really annoy some visitors.  They've paid a ticket to get in.  They want to take a photo.  Why would a museum have those signs up? 

So flash is the slightly easier one to answer.  And that's kind of because, as I said just now,  light can have an effect on things.  I think you'll usually find that in places with art.  Art is the one where light can do damage.  Extended exposure to high levels of light  can cause paintings to fade.  And so you want to minimize that as much as possible.  Similarly, in that same vein,  we do have a lot of complaints  about low light levels in our display cases.  People can't see the objects, that kind of thing.  And it's tricky because, unfortunately,  certain objects do need low light levels.  If we want them to be out on display  for extended periods of time,  they need the light levels to be low  so that they won't be damaged,  but so that you can at least see them.  I know places like the Petrie Museum in London,  at least they used to,  I haven't been for quite a few years,  they give out little torches to people.  So you go around with a little torch.  So you can, because it is darker in there,  but you can go around with a little torch and have a look.  I'm imagining they're kind of okay,  and the collections are okay for that to be done.  But I know a lot of the arguments for not having light,  whether that's flash or even the lights  in the cases being particularly high,  is because of conservation. 

Now, in terms of no photography,  the reason behind that is intellectual property.  I'm not an expert.  I have my own views.  That doesn't mean that's the law, unfortunately.  I would love everyone to be able to take free photos  of everything in a museum whenever they want  and use them how they like.  That would be the way I would see things.  These things don't belong to the museum,  they belong to the people.  That's how I see them,  especially museums like Colchester Museums.  We are a museum for the people of Colchester.  We are not our own private gatekeeping institution.  At least we shouldn't be.  So I think that's how things should be.  However, I know there's a lot of conversations  around misappropriation and misuse of museum collection images,  and that's why people want to regulate  how images of museum collections are used by people.  So that is one of the reasons,  because people can take pictures  and then go off and make a load of money through books.  I doubt they would, to be honest,  but that's one of the concerns,  is that that might happen.  As someone who is a published author,  you don't make a lot of money from books,  so I don't think there's too much of a concern  of the people doing that. 

Because you and I have both written books.  Yours has got a lot more illustrations than mine will.  But I think it's safe to say that  if you see a book on a shelf  and it's got an image from a museum in it,  then that author has paid a lot of money  to be able to use that image. 

Usually, yeah.  So you say my book has a lot of images.  A lot of those are from the Port of Antiquity scheme,  because they are free to use.  And quite a lot I drew myself,  because I don't have the money  to pay extortionate amounts of money  for museums to use their images.  So I drew illustrations myself  to fill up the pages with images.  But that's what I mean.  There is this constant negotiation  of museums having this intellectual property  over these collections,  but also people being able to use them,  the accessibility of these images.  And there are increasingly museums  like the Rijksmuseum in the Netherlands  and the Met in the US.  They are now, not all,  but a lot of their images online  are free to use for whatever.  You can use it commercially.  You can use it however you like.  As long as you have a credit,  you can use it however you like.  So that is another way I filled up my book,  is images from the Met  and other places that are free to use,  because not a lot of places do allow that.  Shout out to the Rijksmuseum,  because one of their images is now on my back cover.  Thank you very much.  Oh, wonderful.  And it is worth saying  that this isn't a blanket thing, is it?  If someone wants to get an image for you somewhere,  it's not every museum that's going to have a fee  or even the same rate of fees  you have to shop around.  Yes, and it's always worth getting in touch and asking.  Because although I think that a lot of museums  will have something on the website  that says something about image rights  and image fees and blah, blah, blah,  but if you speak to someone and say,  look, this is what I'm using it for, this is why.  Because I think we also get a lot of people who panic.  I've had people offering to pay for images  for like a lecture that they're doing.  And it's like, well, actually, no,  we don't charge you for using images for teaching.  We wouldn't do that.  But so, you know,  if you want to use images of our collections  for something and you're not sure,  just ask, just say, I'm using it for this.  I want to do this with it.  I really like this. 

And what will actually happen often,  this is something that we do.  If someone has, say, found an image online  or done it themselves in a rush  while they were visiting the museum,  and they're like, here's the image, can we use it?  What we have done in the past quite a few times  is we'll say, actually,  as you've admitted this isn't the best image,  we'll get in a professional photographer and photograph it,  because that will help us,  because we need a decent image for our records.  And then you can use that image for whatever you're doing  and we have a good image for our records  and then everyone's happy.  So, you know, you can get,  sometimes you can get a better image out of asking us  rather than just a quick happy snap in the museum. 

I love museums who do that.  I'm going to state it very clearly.  I really love museums who help out authors and researchers.  It's very, very appreciated.  Let's say that I want to build a museum.  I have a building.  How am I going to fill it?  Where do I go to get the stuff that I need  to get people through the door? 

Yeah.  So I guess the first thing you'd need to think about  is what you want your museum to be about.  Because as we know, there are museums of all sorts of things.  There's museums of pencils.  There's museums of salt.  There's museums of Roman stuff.  There's museums of all sorts of different things.  So most museums will have a theme or a narrative.  So for Colchester Museums, our theme is Colchester.  It's quite easy.  So everything we have is from the local area.  So kind of going through the different types of collection we have,  there's lots of different routes you can go through.  So archaeology is kind of the easy one, I guess,  because archaeology is happening all the time.  There are archaeological units excavating all the time,  and archaeological units will have to deposit what they find usually.  It's a bit more complex  and probably don't have the time to talk about it today,  but they'll usually have to deposit stuff they find with a museum.  And that is a kind of ongoing conversation that it has.  So we have had for quite a few years  quite a good relationship with Colchester Archaeological Trust,  who are the local unit.  So we have kind of conversations about what they're working on,  where they're working, how much material is coming out,  where we can store it, can we store it, do we have the space,  all those kinds of things.  So that is the kind of main one.  And from archaeological excavations you get archaeology  from way back in the past to kind of more recent stuff.  And archaeology is a bit of a lucky dip.  You go into the ground not knowing what you're going to find.  You might find something really significant.  You might find a million tonnes of broken pottery,  which for some people is really significant.  Don't get me wrong.  But in terms of a museum, the display potential for pottery is not great. 

So although it's important and research-worthy,  in terms of a museum you've got to also think about  what is going to help you tell the narrative that you're trying to tell.  Because a lot of pottery fragments, a member of the public will look at  and not really know what it is or how it would have originally looked  or what it was used for.  So you have to do a lot of extra work to try and explain to people  what these things are and how they work.  Whereas if you have a lovely complete amphora, quite easy.  Stick it in a case, know what it looks like,  used to contain wine or oil or whatever, job done.  So yeah, you've got to think about kind of those things a little bit.  So archaeology, mostly through excavation,  you get, as mentioned, there's treasure as well.  So treasure can end up in museums.  It will get offered to the nearest accredited museum.  So if you're a brand new museum, you're unlikely to be accredited just yet,  but you might get offered some treasure.  So these are objects of gold or silver predominantly  that are kind of older than 300 years,  can be bronze age metalworking hoards as well.  There's various different subcategories within treasure.  And now, as of very recently, I think less than a couple of years,  there is a new clause within the Treasure Act that also includes objects of significance,  which is really hard to monitor. 

That's subjective. 

Yeah, I think there's literally maybe only been like two cases  that have come through that are kind of considered as that.  So yeah, it's really difficult.  But the idea is that historically, whilst the Treasure Act has been in place,  so many significant discoveries have slipped through the net.  I mean, the Crosby Garrett helmet is a good example of that one.  The cavalry helmet, where it was found by, I think, a detectorist,  or at least not by professional archaeologists.  It wasn't considered as treasure at the time because it's not gold or silver.  So it was sold at auction and ended up in a private collection.  And although it's been on public display a couple of times,  it's not permanently on public display, I don't think.  It's not in a museum collection, essentially.  So it could at any moment just disappear and never be seen again.  But that was the problem with the kind of the old Treasure Act,  is it's only gold and silver.  The value was seen as the precious metal content,  not of the historical significance.  And the Crosby Garrett helmet is arguably one of the most incredible  Roman cavalry helmets that have ever been discovered.  It's just incredible.  But these things do slip through the net, sadly.  And they will continue to slip through the net,  because as you say, it's quite a subjective thing to say what the significance of it is. 

Significant to whom? 

Well, that's exactly it.  But that is part of treasure now.  So treasure is another way you can get collections.  Donations from members of the public are a big part as well.  And they can be, I mean, they're all historical,  but some can be more historical than others.  So some will be my great grandmother's siren machine,  or something that's been passed down, you know, family, would you like it?  Some will be, so a lot of museums do contemporary collecting.  So things from today that are seen as significant.  When events happen, like the pandemic, like the coronation,  like the death of the Queen.  Those things are things we have collected from the current day.  So when the Queen died a couple of years ago,  people left loads of material at the teddy bear, cards, wreaths,  all sorts of things at the war memorial in Colchester.  And a lot of that material then ended up with us.  So it's kind of a collection representing a single moment in time  of people's grief towards a single event.  We have a Diana archive as well.  When Princess Diana died, we have several boxes of stuff from when that happened.  So yeah, so that's kind of one thing is kind of the public might donate stuff,  either from specific events today or historically. 

Usually they're clearing it.  I mean, coming back to work today,  I'm sure there's going to be lots of stuff in the inbox.  "Over Christmas, we decided to clear out the attic  and found all of this stuff. 

Do you want it?"  And I will always encourage people to get in touch and offer stuff to us,  even if we say no.  I know it can be disheartening sometimes when museums say,  oh, no, we don't actually want it.  But the problem is you never know and we never know.  So it's always good to do it just in case,  because we've definitely had times where people have offered stuff to us.  And initially we were like, we're not really sure about this.  We've got a lot of dolls.  We don't need any more dolls.  But then you hear the story about it and the connection to the individual  and that whole life that that doll had  and kind of how it's passed down through generations.  And now the next generation doesn't want it and it's really sad.  So they want to find a home for this doll.  And then you think, we have to take it now.  We can't reject this story because it's got...  And especially for us, if it's connected to Colchester,  if it's about a Colchester resident and their life  and how they lived through that time. 

I think that's a really important point, isn't it?  Because sometimes it's not the object itself.  It's the story that's attached to the object that makes it so interesting. 

Yes. Yeah, for us, it's definitely that.  It's the story.  Obviously, it's nice to have a good-looking object, too.  But it's that story that we're telling that is the important thing.  So that's mostly social history comes through that route,  is that people donate stuff to us.  And then finally, natural science.  So we have natural history collections as well.  Similar to archaeology, although on nowhere near the same scale.  You don't really get people going out to excavations finding fossils.  You do get some, but it's mostly people walking on beaches  or people who have been quarrying might find some fossils.  Or, you know, that's how fossils might come to us.  And also, you do get the old occasion of someone bringing in a dead bird  or a dead animal or something.  I mean, we've had, in the old days, we have it far less often now,  but I know, so my colleague Sophie is a natural scientist  and her training was in natural science  and she's been a natural science curator for years.  People would literally just, you'd come in the morning  and there would be like bags of dead animals there.  Because they're like, well, obviously,  the Natural History Museum wants to see these  because, you know, natural science, they've got dead animals inside.  They're going to want more dead animals.  But yeah, that's one way.  It used to be that natural science curators,  and some museums will still do this,  but it used to be that you'd go out and actively collect. 

So you'd go out, I mean, the old, old days it was hunting,  but in the less old days, it would be, you know,  going out to like farms or other places  where they might have animals that have died naturally  and kind of bringing them into the collection, that kind of thing.  And processing in house as well.  Although you might look at taxidermy,  it looks like an animal that's just frozen,  but obviously those things have to be prepared.  So the skeleton's removed, the flesh is removed,  all that stuff's removed.  And the skeleton is then boxed and stored separately.  The skin, if mounted, will be mounted.  Or we just leave it as skin.  We have racks and racks of animal skin  where it's just been removed from the animal.  We have boxes of skeletons.  We have mounted taxidermy too,  where they've been put in lifelike positions.  So, you know, there's lots of different ways.  And plants is another one.  So we have a herbarium.  So people collect plants and press them.  And we have, again,  shelves and shelves of pressed local species of plant.  And yeah, I mean, there's lots of different ways  the natural science collections end up in museums.  And then the final thing for all of these  that can happen but less rarely is auction.  So auction houses do get in touch with us from time to time  and say, we've got this painting  or we've got this collection of stuff  that's from someone from Colchester or, you know, whatever.  And just to let you know,  in case you want to put a bid in and see what happens.  But of course with auctions, you can't guarantee. 

So you don't get first dibs.  You're just invited to bid. 

Yeah, so it's a bit of a strange one, that one.  We do have funding support through a lot of different routes.  So we'll have people help us with that.  So we have a Friends of Colchester Museums  who are wonderful because they financially support us  with lots of different things, mainly acquisition.  So they will help us get new things into the collection.  And we also have  Colchester Museum Development Foundation, CMDF.  And they can also help financially support  things like that or projects and things.  So they can act on our behalf  if we need someone to bid at an auction  or kind of go off and buy something.  And the Friends of Colchester Museum  have bought stuff at auction for us before  in the past quite a few times.  Yeah, so they can mainly artwork.  I think that's the thing.  It's a lot of artwork  that kind of comes through those routes more than anything.  But yeah, but that's kind of those are the main ones.  I mean, there's a lot of varied ways,  but those are kind of the main ways  that things will come into a museum. 

So we've touched on money there,  the idea of needing money for certain acquisitions.  For those who don't understand  how museums work behind the scenes,  but they love to visit them,  it can be a bit of a shock  that sometimes a museum will be completely free to enter  and some of them charge various levels of fees  just to get through the front door.  Why are some museums free to visit  and other museums charge? 

So that will be a decision made by the institution.  Sometimes there will be a clause  or a law or something  within the constitution of that organisation  that means they have to be free.  I feel like that's the case for the British Museum.  I don't know.  I know they probably earn enough anyway  that they wouldn't need to start charging,  other than obviously they charge for their exhibitions,  but they don't charge for entry.  But I'm sure there's something within the constitution  that says they need to be a free institution.  Maybe not them.  There's definitely some I know of where that is the case,  where they're kind of founding people said,  no, this must be free for all eternity.  Sometimes the charges will come in.  So we've had that here  and won't kind of sugarcoat it.  It had a huge impact on our visitor numbers.  So Holly Trees Museum,  we started charging a year and a half ago,  I think it was, almost two years ago.  Not a lot.  I think it's four pounds or something to come in.  The fact that it had been free for ever before then,  essentially,  of course is going to have a bit of an impact  on numbers of people coming.  We still get some school groups  because school groups had to pay anyway  because obviously they're paying for a session.  So that hasn't really changed. 

But yeah, our general visitor numbers  have kind of dropped a little.  So we've been investing time and a bit of money,  but time into Holly Trees to try and spruce it up  to make it more exciting and appealing  so that people feel they're getting value  for a visit there now that they're actually having to pay.  And similarly, the castle hasn't seen a drop in numbers,  but we have had to increase charges over the years.  So that's something we can't kind of keep it static  because the costs of maintaining museums are so high.  So we get some funding from government.  We get some funding from places  like national portfolio organisations  from the Arts Council.  But those are all specific.  Those are targeted for specific things.  So the general running,  electricity, water,  all of those things that everyone has to pay.  But if you think you were doing that for a castle  and a Georgian manor,  and I didn't mention this actually earlier,  the Natural History Museum is in a former church.  It is in what was once All Saints Church.  These are large historic buildings  that need to be powered  with a water supply for all the toilets  and sinks for operational things.  They're historic buildings, so bits fall off sometimes.  They have to be repaired.  So there's all of these factors that happen.  And although you can get funding for some of these,  so we're lucky that every single museum of ours  in the last few years has had something  structurally, architecturally happen  that has needed repairs. 

So Holly Trees had its roof repaired a couple of years ago.  The Natural History Museum is currently having its tower repaired.  And the castle is about to have its roof repaired.  So all three of them have had this.  But we've been lucky to get MEND funding  to be able to get that done  without having to use all of our own budget,  because it's part funding.  So you have to pay some of it yourself,  but it helps you.  Because these things are over a million pounds  to do some of these jobs,  which museums won't have that  just lying around to fix a roof.  But, as I said, some of that money will have to come from us.  So that money comes from the sales of tickets  and the sales in the shop  and event and all those different things.  So that's what your ticket is paying for.  It's not just going into museums.  It is to make sure those museums stay there  so you can visit them again  in one year, five years, ten years,  a hundred years, hopefully,  so that these places are maintained  and kept for future generations as well. 

Yeah, and of course, what I would say  is that, yes, museums do sometimes charge.  But when the price of a ticket is the same  as a cup of coffee on the high street,  what you're getting in return,  as well as what you're helping to preserve for the future,  it's something that perhaps, I think,  people shouldn't quibble quite as much  as they sometimes do.  We've all seen TripAdvisor reviews  for certain museums that are quite niche,  often independent,  and I can't believe I had to pay a pound  to get in here. 

Yeah, I think a big thing  is public perception as well.  It is this idea that  when you've got all these big free ones in London  and then you go somewhere else  and it's not,  it's quite shocking, or it can be shocking.  And it's not even the value at all.  It's just having to pay  is a surprise for them.  So it's changing that perception  of what value there is in museums, really,  and making people aware that they should  pay to get something out of it.  And it's the big ones in London.  It's because they have that bigger funding  from government and from other places  to be able to remain free. 

And, of course, the bigger museums  are able to have other revenue streams,  the evening events, weddings,  I've lost count of the amount of weddings  that I've worked,  but smaller independent museums,  they're not exactly going to be wedding venues.  Support your local museums, they need you.  We've talked about the elephant in the room there,  the big museums in London.  And I want to talk about  when museums become a meme.  Because who hasn't seen  memes of  found something incredible and you blink  and the British Museum have stolen it?  What I will say  just before we go  into the British Museum,  that museum filled itself up in  a time where antiquarians were  going to foreign countries and just hoovering something up.  I'm going to defend  the British Museum here, not because I like  them or approve necessarily,  but it wasn't just the British Museum  that were doing it. I think that's fair to say,  right?

True, yes. 

I've been to the museum in Berlin and they've got  huge buildings that they've stolen from Greece  and Turkey, the same with the Louvre in France.  So just with the same  museums, imperialism in general,  it's not just Britain that had the big  empire, it's the others as well. However,  that said,  the British Museum is what  we would probably term slightly  problematic, right?  Yeah, I would say so.  For various reasons, but yes.  So let's dig into it.  Their main, let's call them, exhibits,  but really their attractions.  They're great on Instagram, for instance.  Their main exhibits in the British  Museum are very rarely British.  The point  being that the museum was to show the  whole world to the people of Britain, right?  But the acquisitions there  weren't always what we would  now deem good practice, right?  Can you speak to a little bit about that? 

Not at all. So the way  places like the British Museum often justify themselves  is by saying, well, we  bought them. We bought  these collections from the people in the  countries where they came from.  So that's fine.  So there was no form of coercion  at all. There was no form of military  presence going on in the background at all.  There was nothing else going on at the time  that would have made people feel like they had no  other choice but to sell  their heritage to another country.  And in some instance, they were outright  taken. That's the thing. Or they  were required after  conflict, blood loss, you know,  horrible events that  no matter how you kind of look at the  actual handing over of that object,  the buildup  to that is problematic.  And as you say, the British Museum  is kind of more the Museum of the British Empire  rather than the British Museum. It's got objects  from all over the places it conquered  or tried to conquer. And  it then displays them in a way  to kind of show how great the  Empire supposedly was, that it's  able to take things from those  places and then bring them back to  Blighty and stick them in London and everyone  can see them, which obviously also you have  things like the Great Exhibition and things like that that were sort of  spinoffs of that concept that  was kind of showing off imperial  power and prestige.  But it's the way  I think as well that places like the British Museum  choose to or choose  not to engage with that. 

So, of course,  on the one hand, we can say, right, well,  yeah, that's how they were required.  But the people working there today,  they didn't do that. So  they're not directly to blame  for having those things in the  collection. However,  they, like us, know how  those collections were acquired and how they ended up there.  Why are they not shouting  about that more and saying,  this was horrible. We are an institution  that has these collections, but it was acquired  in a horrible way. It's something we wouldn't do  today. This is terrible. Let's have  conversations about returning some, if  not all, of these collections, because they should  go, a lot of them should go, back to  where they came from. And instead, they kind of stick their head in their  sands and go, oh, it's constitutional.  We can't do anything about  it. Our hands are tied. The government won't allow  us. And it's  for someone who works in museums,  it's ridiculous, really. We're able  to have those conversations.  We have very little, if any,  material from anywhere outside of Colchester.  But we have some  natural science collections,  actually. So we have five birds  from New Zealand. And we are  actually in the process of returning  them to Auckland, because  they don't belong here in the nicest way  possible. And we only found  out about them because, again, we have these huge collections.  We don't know what's in those collections.  It would take decades for one person to look  through everything. But we had an  independent review of our taxidermy a few  years ago and identified these  five New Zealand birds.  And we were like, well,  right, well, I guess we've got to  find a way to get rid of them. And in that process,  we were like, well, surely it makes sense to  go back to New Zealand.

So, you know,  I will also say, again, not  justifying the British Museum, they do steal  from their own, because the British Museum have  collections from Colchester in  their galleries, as well as in the collections,  stored collections. So they do take stuff  from Britain as  well. We have on display in Colchester Castle  a few replicas  of objects. I mean, the most  famous probably is the head of  Claudius slash Nero that was found  in the river in Suffolk, but sort  of near us. So we have a replica  of that head on display because the British Museum  have the real one. So, you  know, it's not just other  countries they were stealing from, they were stealing from  across their own country as well. But it is this wider,  like I say, it's more about how they're engaging with  it, how it's kind of like this,  as if there's no possible way  of dealing with this big issue.  They're just trying to stick their head in the sands and pretend it's not  happening.

Which is not only quite  stubborn, it's also really quite egotistical,  isn't it? Because one of the arguments for not  sending things back is the  countries that we stole these or bought  these from can't look after  them like we do.  Now, we're a couple of centuries now  after most of these things were brought over to Britain.  Is that still true?  Are British museums really better  than other European  such as Greece, Turkey, Cyprus?  Are we really truly better  at looking after our museum exhibits  than these countries are? 

Absolutely not. Some of the best  museums in the world I've seen have been in other countries.  Both  structurally, the  designs and the building and  the environmental control and  all of that. I mean, I've been to the  Museum at the Acropolis and  where the rest of the Parthenon  sculptures are stored. There is  absolutely no argument that that  building is less quality than the British Museum  at all. It is far superior in  a lot of different ways. And those  sculptures would be far better  displayed and preserved there.  I mean, just even light levels alone  they would look incredible in that  space compared to how they're displayed at the British  Museum. But, you know, they have to  have an argument and they've chosen that.  It's completely flawed. But even  museums in other parts of  the world, obviously  they have collections from Korea, Japan,  China, West Africa, all  those places like Benin, like the  bronzes, like all the arguments around that. There are  fantastic museums that they could go to  and be perfectly well preserved and stored and  looked after. But that's  their argument they're  choosing to use to say  well we can't do it because we are somehow better.  Yeah. But it's  completely flawed.

I've recently been  to Turkey and I was frustrated  because a lot of the museums when I was  there were closed for restoration which  drove me nuts. However,  I was able to go to one of  the museums that they have recently  reopened in Manisa and  it was stunning.  It was absolutely stunning as was  the museum at Ephesus.  And I couldn't help but think when I was there  it's fantastic  what they have on display.  But the Temple of Artemis,  one of the Seven Wonders of the  World, most of it is in the British Museum  and it hasn't been on display  for decades.  I think I saw parts of it when I  was a teenager which is  years ago and it's not been open  ever since. You can't see it.  Why hold on to it when  Turkey are building these massive museums  rebuilding, restoring the museums  they've already got. It's a really  poor excuse. And one of the things  that you've mentioned that I really want to talk about  is replicas.  Is it  fair to say that with modern  technology you can make such good  replicas that the British Museum  could eventually after a period of  10-20 years have a collection  of replicas that's so good that they  could send the originals back  and barely anyone would notice the difference? 

I think quality wise  for sure. Yeah, definitely  you could produce a high quality  replica of any of the things  that they have. There have been conversations  around returning and you wouldn't  notice the difference. The only  reservation I have,  and don't get me wrong, I fully support the use of replicas,  but people do love to see the originals.  So I think you'd have less people  coming to the British Museum to see a replica  of the Elgin marbles as you would to  come now to see the Elgin marbles.  But that's why they need to completely rethink  what their mission and focus and  how they  engage with the collections they do have.  The room where  those marbles are stored is huge.  You could do a lot in that space. That could be a whole  extra exhibition room.  They could do a lot of exciting things in  there.

And I mean that room  is poorly lit. It's not been redecorated  for years.  The roof is leaking. 

Yeah, it's a terrible  space. But with a bit of investment  just taking them out and a bit of investment  in that space, it could be a really good  room for, again,  because I know unfortunately a lot of things  around museums and any organisation  is about how do we make money from this space.  Or it could be an event space. It could be  anything. You could turn that space  into anything. You don't need to have  those, that freeze  in that space. You could have anything in there  really. But  yeah, I think again  they're trying to use arguments to  have absolutely no grounding in anything anymore  really. 

I think as well, one of the arguments for  not sending various bits and bobs back  to where they came from, not just Greece, not just  the Greek and Roman world even though that's what  this podcast is about, to anywhere in the world  is that when the museums  acquired this stuff in the  17 and 1800s, it was  difficult for the average Briton to  go to these original  places and see them in situ, right? But  now that you can get to Athens on a Ryan  Air flight for like 27 euros,  that argument  suddenly starts to look very, very  different. We don't  live in the same kind of world  as a couple of hundred years ago. We can go  to these places quite cheaply and easily.  We should be able to see  the things in the places that they were created  for, right? Because it's not just objects, is it?  Sometimes these buildings have  not even just a stature, a bit of  buildings, sometimes they have whole buildings  inside the museum. 

Yep, yep.  Yeah, the British Museum obviously has that  and some of those museums in Berlin, you mentioned  they have whole buildings. 

Yeah, the Met I think has an Egyptian temple. 

Yes, yeah.  And not even in museums actually,  if we're going to talk about it. In Madrid, they've got  a part of an Egyptian temple  in one of the parks that was given  as a gift.  I don't know how accurate that is, but it was given as a gift  many, many years ago. Well, a bit like, and again  in London, again, Cleopatra's Needle.  You get these elements  of heritage from other countries  in the world dotted around.  But they're now  seen as a structural part of that place.  And I think museums are different.  I think it's tricky  sometimes if, because we always  talk about object histories and building  an architecture has a history too. And so  when something has gone from  one place to another and has been reused, reinterpreted,  like it does,  you could argue it does almost become part of the history  of that place as well. But when it's  a museum and it's in a collection,  it's a slightly  different thing, I think. It's not,  don't get me wrong, I think there's definitely conversations about  returning Cleopatra's Needle and other  non- kind of  British heritage that has ended its way  into different places.  But yeah, I think they are seen as  kind of slightly different. I think people have more of a  comfort in feeling, oh actually, no,  that's part of here now. It's kind of been here  long enough. It's visible in the streets or whatever.  It's part of the architecture. 

Whereas museum collections, they're  either hidden away or they're in dark galleries,  as you say. They're not being well lit, they're not being  well kind of accessible.  So there's kind of,  that's why there have been so many conversations  more around those museum collections. But of course  currently the thing from the British  Museum most recently is that they're saying maybe they'll  loan them back to those  countries. Which  as someone who has long  term loans in our museum  galleries, it's just a pain.  Because any time you need to go into  the case that that thing is in, or any time  you need to do anything vaguely nearby  it, you have to ask permission from the lender.  Sometimes they'll have to actually physically  come before you can do anything.  Or at least now you can do stuff on Zoom,  but obviously then it's arranging a Zoom meeting where everyone's  available. And it just becomes this whole  faff.  And most museums will have  their own wonderful collections that they can  tell incredible stories with.  Like I personally feel loans  are only really useful  for temporary exhibitions. If you're trying  to tell a really important story and you  don't have quite all of the collections  you want to do that with,  to loan something for say six  months, that's fine. Because you know  that for that six months you're not going to go into that  space really very much and change things around anyway.  And you know it's a bit easier.  But yeah I've had so many problems over the years  of long term loans to us  where we've wanted to do something.  And then of course you have to keep renewing it every so often  and then you forget about it and then  they come back and say oh do you still want this random  thing that we lent you 20 years ago?  It's like well you caught me off guard now.  So I kind of have to say yes because I don't really have the time to think about it.  So it's easy just to say yes and continue it until  I have some space to think about what we could  do instead. But then it just keeps on going forever  and ever. But yeah so loans I don't think  is a helpful solution at all. 

Just for the optics as well right?  We're going to loan you something that we took from you  but we'll let you have that temporarily. 

Yeah that  is itself is wrong  on so many levels. But yeah it's just  bureaucratically is also a major  problem. And again it doesn't  really help the situation because it's still saying  we think this is ours.  It's not acknowledging that these things  come from other countries. 

From the conversation  that we've had then it seems like we can  say that museums  aren't neutral they are political entities  right? Yeah 100%.  So what would you say  bearing that in mind that each museum  should be thinking about as  its kind of political ethical  responsibilities? What should they be doing and  saying to the public? 

I think there's a need for  openness. Whether  that's who your funders are, who  you're working with because museums will  as I've said do many projects with many community  groups. That's one of the big challenges I  have at least it's kind of  cognitive kind of processing  thing I kind of often think about is  because I've done a lot of work with community  groups over the years. That's one of the big things  I've kind of done is working with different  groups. And  one of the things I'm aware of not that we've had anything  explicit around this but one of the things I'm aware of and  want to try and avoid  is people saying why are you working  with them and not us?  Because although we're always open to working with any  group and especially  with the climate  today and the way  things that are happening in the world. So for example  I've done a lot of work recently with the Jewish community  not because of anything  going on in the rest of the world. It's just a  project that happened and started years  and years ago that  came to fruition recently. We had a display  of an object that happened to be related to the  medieval Jewish community. So I  called Jewish community today  but because of things happening we did  have conversations about what to do if  people started saying  why are you working with this community?  Why aren't you working with other communities?  Are you by working this community showing  support of certain other things  going on? Absolutely not. But  people might start to question  those things and we need to be ready  with a response to say well actually what we're doing  is a museum display  around a historical topic that  happens to relate to this community. That's  why we're working with them because we want to hear  their perspectives because it  relates to their heritage  not mine. So that's why I wanted to make sure  that they were represented  and reflected in the display that we did. 

That is really important and so many museums  have in the past just done stuff  and not really thought about  those kinds of things about why are we  working with this group? And there  definitely have been cases in the past where  groups that museums have been working with have  turned out to be doing not particularly good things  or supporting things  that they shouldn't. Same  with funders. I mean  BP.  There's lots of  funders of museums big and small  where things have come out of the woodwork  and you find out actually they're not doing great things.  Do we continue to take their money?  So we might be doing good things but we're  taking money from people who aren't doing good things  so is that ethical? So all of these  kind of things museums are  usually considering but being  open about that I think is the main  thing. Museums need to be very open about who  they're working with and why and what they're doing  so that if anything  does come out  of it, if there is anything questionable  about the ethics or the  kind of things that those organisations are doing  then they can say well this is why we chose  to work with them. This is the route we went  down. We did our due diligence.  We did our research. We didn't find anything  wrong but due to  these new things that have come to light we will  reconsider our relationship with them  or not. Some places might not  reconsider the relationship  but that openness about  who you're working with and why I think is really important. 

Yeah. Another  thing that I want to just briefly touch upon  is that we're often told  that museums are for everybody.  However for some people in  marginalised groups that  might not feel necessarily true in  every museum. We go  to museums to see stories that usually we  can relate to in some way  but I have been to many a museum  where I've not seen a single object about  a woman. That's my personal experience  and I'm sure that is true for a lot of other  marginalised groups. So what can museums be doing  to make sure that everyone does feel  welcome and feel represented? 

So again this is  work I've been doing for quite a few years now  and it's  difficult. I don't think there is like  a blanket thing. I don't think there's like  you do this and everyone will feel welcome. It's  a very individual approach.  You need to be  open to work with lots of groups and I  spent kind of years, so I started  out as, so when I was originally a collections  and learning curator, I had  a responsibility for community engagement specifically  and so I spent a lot  of time just going  and hanging out with different communities.  I would go to meetings, I would go  to events, I would go to whatever  and meet  people and say hi I work at museums, my name's Ben  blah blah blah. We're doing this exhibition coming up  very exciting, please feel free to come along. Inviting  people to come, giving people an invite  to that space is a big part of that  and making yourself familiar to them as well. So  they start to feel like there's  someone there. I might not be there on  the day that they visit but at least they know  someone there and they know someone they  can kind of have as a familiar person  connected to that organisation. And then in  time projects might come up. There might be an  exhibition through conversations you have  and you think well actually we've got a load  of objects that relate to this and we haven't put them on display.  Do you want to come and work with us?  And we will do that. 

Another key thing which a lot of  which I think museums are kind of slowly starting  to get now and do more of, there's something we've done  for a long while, is paying people for their time.  So when you do have community  consultants come in to talk about stuff  not just giving them  a free tour of the museum and a cup of coffee  you say well you're giving an hour  or two hours of your time  to consult with us  on how we should do this display in this exhibition  so we are going to pay you  for that time. And that's  where we had a West African gold  display several years ago where  we had members from lots of  parts of West Africa come and kind of consult us  and we paid them.  It wasn't a lot of time, it was only like an hour  or two hours kind of sessions  we had with them but we paid  them for it and kind of similarly  with stuff we've done since.  So it's kind of  making sure that  people feel they're valued  for their input as well because otherwise  they're not going to want to come in.  If they don't feel like they're valued they're not going to want  to share that.  And it's a long and difficult process.  I think this is also the other thing to  remember and it's really difficult for museum people to  accept and acknowledge this is that  sometimes museums won't be for everyone.  And that's okay.

I know the  aspiration is get everyone  in. We need to aim for being appealing to everyone.  And don't get me wrong I think  theoretically museums could  be. But that's museums  in general. I don't think my museum  will appeal to everyone.  But I think there will be a museum somewhere in the world  that people will  like. If someone comes and doesn't like Colchester  Castle there'll be another museum elsewhere  that they will like. That's kind of my thinking.  So it's to kind of impassion people  about museums in general but not  try and force them through your own doors because  that will be the thing that puts them off to be honest  if they come in and they kind of feel  like it's not their space. 

Yeah and what I would say as  well to people is to do  a bit of research because  there are niche museums  that won't be for you.  But that doesn't mean that you have to go to  the kind of catch all museums. I worked in  a museum. It was an artillery museum  located inside a Victorian fort.  So it was niche.  I loved it  because  a lot of people don't know that the place exists  for whatever  reason. I mean it's niche.  But the people that did go  I was able to have far  better conversations with them and  far more engaging. I was able to teach  them more and give them a better experience  than when I worked in big museums  that were for everyone  and you just went to it because it feels  like an obligation. You're going to this city  the top ten in the guidebook.  Seek out the niche museums  because the staff will be  certainly more able  to talk to you about your niche interest  and you're going to have a better experience.  Find the unusual little  gems, the nuggets.  It's worth doing. 

One of the first museums  I volunteered in was  the Upminster Tithe Barn Museum  of Nostalgia.  It was literally a barn  filled with old  agricultural stuff and a couple of cases  of relatively recent  social history and it was wonderful.  It was because  mainly because the people we had in  were local people who had  lived in the area or their families had lived in the area  for decades and they would come in and  see the stuff and be like oh I remember that being  wherever and my family used to  and the conversation you'd have with those people  would be incredible and they felt  real value coming in and seeing  stuff that was familiar to them and  just sharing their stories. I think  this is the other thing that's often overlooked.  Museums are still seen as this kind of  authoritative museums  we educate the  public whereas actually it's  a two-way thing. We are  there for people to tell us  about history. I mean I  have my areas of  specialism and interest but as we've discussed  today there's vast  collections we have from all  sorts of topics, subject areas, whatever  and I love someone coming up to me  and saying oh you're the senior curator  I found this object on display  I think it's a this and it's really  important because this is public and tell me  about this object because I probably  won't know because it's probably something that I'm  completely unfamiliar with but I love  hearing those stories from people so that I can then improve  our understanding of our collections  and we can then  maybe in the future add more  to that record or to the label or to  whatever. So I think it's really  important to make it clear that museums aren't  a one-way street. It's not about  us educating the public. It's about  us all better understanding the  past or nature or  art or whatever it happens to be. 

I mean we can say that  kind of generally can't we?  The questionable museums  give monologues but the  best museums have conversations. 

Yeah.  Perfect. Yes. A hundred percent.  I mean that's where the origin  of museum comes from isn't it?  It's the muses. It's places of inspiration.  Places of contemplation  and thinking. It's not just  about education. 

So to start  wrapping things up.  At home and abroad and you're not allowed to say  Colchester. What  are some of your favourite museums and why? 

One of my favourites  is arguably the House of European History in  Brussels and has been. I haven't  been for a very long time.  It just, I mean  just for  a lot of different reasons just the sheer  comprehensiveness and the narrative  way that it kind of writes and  presents history but it just  yeah it only opened I think  in like  13, 14 maybe something  like that. It's a relatively recent  museum essentially.  But yeah it's how I went a few  times kind of over  the years but I haven't been for a very long while  but it had some incredible  incredible stuff. I think that's the other thing  is places that have unique and exciting  and really interesting things in. As well  as the way they present that narrative and how it  all fits. So that certainly is one of my favourites.  The other and I can't remember  the exact name of it but it's  something like the Museum of Ancient Technology  in Athens. So good.  I know it's like honestly  one of my favourites because it has all of like the  ancient Greek kind of stuff but they've done modern  replicas of how they work. Like the doorbell, the water doorbell  and all those things. Like  just the way it's presented is so  engaging and so fun that  yeah easily that's one of my  favourites. And they have I think that one  had like a little exhibition space above as well so  you can have temporary exhibition things  in there. Because when I went it had like Tesla  I think about Tesla for some reason.  Amazing.  But yeah so yeah those are probably  the two that like spring out  for sure. But I've been to so  many incredible ones kind of all over  all over. Mostly Europe  to be honest. I'm not very world travelled. 

No me neither.

I've been to  Morocco and I've been to  like the United States a little bit out of that  but not for museumy things. That was  many many years ago. So yeah I've mainly  seen kind of European museums  but yeah  there's so many incredible ones  out there. Yeah there  are. It's hard to choose. And they're so  worth seeking out.

My personal favourite  is the archaeological museum in  Taranto. Right on the bottom of  Italy. Not a lot of people get down  there in Taranto.  I mean it doesn't have the  standing structures  that you might see in other towns.  You won't see a lot of columns from old temples.  But that museum is  so good. Equally  as good if not better than  the museums in Rome for instance.  And I have a thing about lighting.  And because I go to  a lot of museums with sculpture and bits  of architecture, they're all white and beige  right? I have a complete  version to beige statues in front  of a magnolia wall.  It drives me nuts. But  for sheer drama  and it's very photogenic - Taranto's museum is  all the lighting is perfect.  They have some amazing amazing exhibits.  My personal favourite.  And I know this is controversial about  displaying human remains. But they have  the grave of the only  ancient Greek athlete  that has ever been excavated.  That's the kind of thing  you don't always have to go to  the capital cities right?  You go to the regional  museums and they have some amazing  stuff that you think this should be in  the main museum of this country.  But really, regional museums  are where it's at. 

Yeah. I think Greece and Italy  especially.  Just the levels of, so  my dad used to live in Crete  in kind of quite high up in the mountains  in sort of central Crete.  And we went to a sort of nearby  museum one day and  expecting it to be like little provincial  a few bits apart  in a nice glass case.  The building was immaculate  and beautiful like glass  metal kind of structure.  And some of the stuff they had  in there was incredible. And of course  Crete, Minoans all the way through to  kind of  ancient Greek, Venetians  like loads, loads of history going on  in Crete. But just the stuff they had in there  was amazing. And I think it  was something like not even two euros or  something probably to go in there.  To have all of this stuff. But  it's, yeah, middle of nowhere in  Crete. So it was, yeah, not  they must get hardly any visitors.  I think they had like school groups. There was a coach park so they must  get like school groups and stuff go.  And it was quiet. That was the other thing.  It's so quiet. And it was lovely  to walk around. I like my museums  to be busy because it means we've got good  footfall and income. But I love to go  to museums that are quiet because  I can explore and wander and just take it all  in. And yeah, and that was what was great  about it is you could just kind of  experience kind of everything. 

I mean I've attempted the Vatican  museums twice. I think I burst into  tears. Possibly Neurodivergence  played a bit of a part here because it was really overwhelming.  But it was just so busy that it was  a truly horrible experience.  But both working in  and visiting the kind of places that might  only get three visitors a day.  It's not great for the  museum's wallet, but for the  quality of what you get to see  and the quality of conversations that you can  have with the staff as well because you're not just listening to an  audio guide with a pre-recorded script.  You get to actually speak to the people  about what you're seeing. It's fantastic. 

Exactly.

So  thank you so much for talking  to us about how museums work because  a lot of this isn't obvious  to people who just visit them.  So thank you for explaining all of that.  Before I let you go though, I have  to give you the opportunity because it's such a  great book. Can you tell us about your  latest publication please? 

Yes. So  it launched  last April 25.  So yeah, it launched in April 25.  It's called 50 LGBTQ  plus finds.  It contains 50  stories  using objects found  by the public,  archaeological objects found by the public  and recorded with  the portable antiquities scheme  that we mentioned earlier.  It kind of goes through a few  different themes. So we have historical  figures. So we have objects that have  historical figures on them or connected to historical  figures. We have the natural world  and so themes of  sex and sexuality  in the natural world.  We have symbolism and language.  So how kind of the use  of terms such as gay  or kind of different words  have been used and changed throughout time.  We have myth  and folklore. So looking at  things like unicorns, mermaids, fairies  and then it ends on communities.  So looking at how different communities  throughout history were  more or less accepting  of LGBTQ plus people  and how some of them may have become safe havens  and some might be quite surprising like  pirates. Pirates, there are many  stories of same sex relationships  amongst pirates and  of women. So this isn't necessary  they weren't necessarily trans but women who had  to dress as men to kind of get by.  But then there was kind of this acceptance of  and a lot of playing with gender  around. I mean you look, pirates are pretty  camp aren't they? They're not like necessarily  masculine, macho people  even though they're sort of presented as that to us  when we're younger I think. But like this  idea of playing with gender and  what's appropriate to wear and all those kinds of things.  A lot of that happens within pirate communities  so that was kind of, that was one of the  stories I kind of look at. It is very much whistle stop.  It's not, it doesn't go into huge  depth in each of the  subjects but it's kind of like a taster.  So if you want to  have a springboard to kind of find out  a few things and then to go off and find out more  it's a good starter to kind of get you  introduced to some themes  within LGBTQ plus history.  Perfect. And for any listeners who want to buy  the book and I really do recommend that you get it  we will be putting links in the  episode description so that you can go and get yourself  a copy.

Thank you so  much Ben. This was a fantastic conversation.  It's made me miss  my museum career quite a lot. I need to get  back into it. Feeling quite nostalgic  now. Thank you so much.  Well I hope you've enjoyed that behind the  scenes tour. Hopefully it's given you a new  appreciation for the museums that you visit  and the people who work in them.  And maybe it's inspired you to go and visit some new  ones. I know I still have a  long long wish list of places that  I want to visit.